And we thought we were doing every one a favor by attending the contest!

We make a huge fuss about the MV model being a good one and that it is
as good as anything in the world and then don't think the tools are
important. Of course if we are marketing a method of making it
easier/more efficient then we want to win this contest. We want to show
people that we have a tool that is worth its salt.

I would not dream of impugning Kevin's abilities, but if you want a
competition that asks its competitors to create an application, then why
wouldn't you allow a tool that is designed to create an application into
the competition. It's like having a bricklaying competition and not
allowing trowels, spirit levels and plumblines.

I could accept if all you were allowed to bring into the room were the
tools that you intend to use for the competition, but to disallow tools
altogether seems a little strange.

Perhaps my understanding of the competition was incorrect, but it seemed
that we were supposed to get a functional spec for an application and
then create one. The end result would be judged on a bunch of criteria
(don't know what they were) but I would assume that it would be
something like adherence to the spec, ease of use and appearance of the
application - relatively real world criteria.

We do want to create an application that can stand proudly in today's
marketplace, don't we? While I am sure no-one would want to market the
developed application we surely would want people to look at it and say
that they could see the inkling of an application that could compete in
the big bad world and that they should continue to peddle their
application based on our technologies.

Perhaps I am looking at this in the wrong context but aren't we supposed
to be working for the betterment of the market as a whole (that way we
get a bigger pie to share). 

Why would you say that this is only about the DBMS? Shouldn't it be
about the development environment? Of course someone using just Basic
and an editor could win, but they certainly wouldn't win in real life,
so why would they in this competition.

We want to show people that it is good to develop in the MV world and if
our product helps them to create a world class app, doesn't that help
everyone that reads these musings?

Dave Bryant
DesignBais


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin King
Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 7:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [U2] Spectrum conference

>Tony Gravagno wrote:
>As is evident by these notes, it would seem that the challenge was
all about tools, but the opposite is true.
>it had nothing to do with GUI or technology and someone with AE/ED
and a greenscreen could have won.  

Tony, thank you so much for bring this perspective - the RIGHT ONE -
to the discussion.  There's been way too much focus on tools in the
discussion of last year's programming competition, and I frankly I for
one am immensely tired of what has turned into a slight of my
abilities, like somehow I couldn't have possibly won without the tools
I used?  (Those who have said such things know who you are.)

>Tools can certainly help, but last year we saw that the tools 
>actually got in the way when they became the focus.

My original concern is that the discussion of tools got in the way of
having the competition this year.  Personally, I was looking forward
to the competition after Gus and crew announced they had levelled the
playing field.  With the changing of the guard at the magazine I can
see now how the competition could have definitely been a back seat
issue.  I only hope that Nathan and Clif can find a way to hold the
competition next year, and even if they make us all solve the problem
with nothing more than a PE version out of the box, then I welcome the
opportunity to prove that solutions and tools are not as tightly
coupled as some have suggested.

>Assuming there will be another challenge, next year may 
>be different if a more clear message can be established 
>about what is expected.

Throw out the tools if necessary.  I'd even go as far as to not allow
participants to bring anything into the room.  Set up each participant
on a cheap laptop with a PE version, hand out a spec and say "go for
it".  Won't get much more level than that.  Problem is, as you've
pointed out, would the tool providers want to play if there wasn't a
marketing opportunity?  I would hope that wouldn't be true because as
you said...

>And remember - it's all for fun and prizes and 
>profiling our DBMS of choice, not to show 
>how great one's products are.

Amen, bro.  Thanks again.

-Kevin
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.PrecisOnline.com
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