If you think that's what an average user does, you have a very skewed
way of an average user. The whole idea of Linux is to provide a
customization that goes beyond "Oh, do I click on Internet Explorer?"
How many people using Gnome fall into this "average user" category you
hold? I would say 2% and after they've used the system for a month
they're no longer that.
You have a very skewed vision or image of real life, unless you want
to make Kiosk computers. Anyone who is capable of installing Ubuntu
Gnome will know what Firefox is. It doesn't take long to get to know
what e.g. Evolution is, since it sports an email icon.
The initial period of getting to know these applications is very short
compared to the actual time you ought to be using it. If someone
cannot install Ubuntu Gnome, you can be expected that they have a
person who did install it for them and who can introduce them to these
applications. After all, getting to know firefox and knowing its icon
is pretty essential to being tutored in using a computer. What if a
person uses Gnome for three months and someone asks what browser do
you use? I don't know, it's called Web Browser. That means the
learning experience of using Firefox is essentially disrupted because
its identity is hidden.
It makes no sense at all to name something after a category, I repeat.
And most people who have used the system for three months and would
have experienced two different browsers, would definitely pick a
favourite.
They do care if they know, and using a computer is all about exploration.
I repeat, sorry if I say so, but that "average user" does hardly
exist. You could call it "novice user" and novices do not remain that.
You should not frustrate a user in learning more. You are treating
people like children but also children who are too stupid to learn.
The only thing the system is good for is a Kiosk computer (and perhaps
quite well).
A novice user cannot install a computer. These are people that ask
friends for help in Installing Windows. They are too scared to do
otherwise.
Seriously, you have a skewed image. This target audience does not exist.
For example, most people who have used Windows for a few years (and
every teen has (almost)) will know what Firefox and Photoshop are.
They know Instagram, Facebook, they know many apps for smarthphones,
they know Whatsapp, the only program that doesn't use a distinctive
name is Messenger. (Facebook Messenger).
These are brand names that get acquired very quickly. They are not
obstacles. You are blowing up the initial learning period to be a very
difficult thing, and it is not.
Learning brand names is a natural process and everyone does it
everywhere all the time. Your cable company is not called "Cable
Company" because it is not distinctive and does not identify.
How many people do you think have trouble learning whatever its name
is or what companies there are and what they offer? None.
But naming it "File Manager" and "Web browser" introduces many
obstacles, while the opposite really has no drawbacks and only
advantages. It's only in your mind. I'm not sure if you have "asked"
any "average user". Typically, anyone who is involved with Linux is
way more advanced than that. Most people I meet do not know what
Ubuntu is, a few do, the more student minded. These people would never
install it, but may have someone who wants to install it for them.
Then, that person would be responsible for introducing the person to
the system. I would not recommend a different system to anyone
without personally making sure they are introduced.
So all that's left is Kiosk computers, where average or new or unknown
users get to use a computer that is workable fast without having a
work-in period. In that case it makes sense. Not for a personal
install. Not really.
Anyway, these are just my thoughts again. I believe I'm pretty
straight in this and pretty clear and I believe you are alienated from
regular people if you believe any otherwise.
Just give it a try and see how good it works. Any regular user can
never find the program in e.g. a process explorer or overview, pretty
much an essential feature. So the feature is broken.
You break all kind of things with this and what is the benefit? It is
none. It is in your mind. Nobody really likes it except people who
have rationalized it.
Sorry, but... It's really clear as daylight. It makes it a worse
system by far. The out of the Box Gnome experience is not all that
good....
It is apparently a new concept that was tried and tested as a
deviationg from the standard and the norm and the accustomed and the
regular way of doing things in business and in life, and has the
deviation really been evaluated? I think not. It is just an idea.
Nobody really knows if it works and for whom, because the people who
are advocating it are definitely not that category of "average user".
So it makes no sense. This target audience.... it is not you yourself,
and they don't even exist really. They are different people that are
an imaginging. Who knows these average users? That are interested in
Gnome? That know about Gnome?
I don't know any. I know people who barely know how to open the
internet (a browser) and I would not give them Ubuntu Gnome without
support, or any form of computer without support really.
I would not give my mother and father a computer without my help,
essentially. Those of my age, they can all use computers, none
excepted. In the age range of 30-5, there are no "average users".
There are only proficient users. So you also only cater to elderly
people.
At least, anyone who has gone to school and had to use a computer for
school knows their way around it.
Reall, really skewed.
My apologies.
Quoting Alfredo Hernández <[email protected]>:
I agree with Julien. Our purpose is to give a pure GNOME experience. The
average user doesn't care if they are using Totem or VLC, they want a Video
Player and they will most probably have only one video player installed.
On 26 June 2015 at 17:33, Julien Olivier <[email protected]> wrote:
Yes, sorry, my explanation lacked an important detail: I reckon the
GNOME developers wanted to use generic names for first-party apps only (and
thus, for one and only one app for each task). Third party apps are still
displayed using their real name.
I might be wrong though, or GNOME developers might also have changed their
strategy since the last time I checked...
Le vendredi 26 juin 2015 à 16:04 +0200, Narcis Garcia a écrit :
I believe there is a middle point for this:
"Gedit text editor"
"Nautilus file manager"
"Firefox web browser"
etc.
If someone names simply "Web browser" to Epiphany, how is named
Firefox?? In a bad names strategy, user could see this in an
applications menu:
Web browser <- This is Firefox (you must know)
Web browser <- This is Mirori (you must know)
Web browser <- This is Icecat (you must know)
...no sense.
It's very difficult for casual (or new) users this other extreme in a
bad names strategy:
Sylpheed <- This is an e-mail software (you must know)
Evolution <- This is an e-mail software (you must know)
Geary <- This is an e-mail software (you must know)
El 26/06/15 a les 11:13, Julien Olivier ha escrit:> Hi Bart, list,>
> the thing with names is that it's better when they actually
*mean*> something. An experimented user will immediately know that
Firefox is a> web browser or that Evolution is an email program.
But normal users will> have no clue about it :) Some apps use names
that provide clues as to> what the purpose of the app is, like
Rhythmbox or Gedit, but most don't.> > I think the recent trend
among GNOME developers is that the app name is> more like an
internal code, not aimed at being used in the user experience.> >
Maybe a good way to fix your problem would be to have a "Launch in>
terminal" entry in the app's dash icon, next to "New Window" and
"Add to> favourites", possibly as a GNOME Shell extension ?> > Le
vendredi 26 juin 2015 à 10:25 +0200, Bart Schouten a écrit :>>
Quoting Narcis Garcia <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>>>:>>>> > I
agree with Keith Grider in a subject: "
please name all programs in the>> > UI the same as the cli (...) if
you want to diagnose the problem, you>> > need to grep all over
the internet to find out what the program name is>> > to be able
to launch from the command line to see what errors are
occurring">> >>> > This problem is worse with localized UI.>>>>
Yes. It makes no sense to name something "File Manager" instead
of >> "Nautilus" when Nautilus is a name you can love and a brand
name. >> Kubuntu (KDE) just puts a like subtitle next to the real
name in the >> menu to describe it. I don't think "File Manager"
(or whatever) makes >> much sense and you cannot love it. Only
the most mediocre computer >> users do not know what "file
manager" or anything with a name is and >> some of them don't
even know what the button "web" is supposed to do >> (in a kiosk
computer). You can't really cater to them. Those users >> can't
use Linux anyway. People who have to learn how to use a mouse >>
and who cannot make double-clicks without moving the mouse too
much >> (it happens all too common). I don't think that should be
your target >> audience. A proficient computer user that cannot
use a mouse and does >> not know what a file manager icon is
supposed to do -- they can never >> use linux. They couldn't use
Windows. You'd only give them a Mac, at >> best. I feel it is
catering to the lowest common denominator.>>>> Personally I think
Gnome would be at least twice as good if they got >> rid of those
confusing names when there are good names for those >> programs
already.>>>> Just my opinion, as well.>>>> Bart.>>>> >>> >>> >>> >
El 25/06/15 a les 15:44, Keith Grider ha escrit:>> >> Hi,>> >>>>
>> I have been running Gnome desktop under Ubuntu since 11.04. I
did not>> >> like Unity and did not like the Gnome fallback. Tried
Elementary OS for>> >> a while and came back to Ubuntu Gnome
because they are so slow to>> >> release Freya.>> >>>> >> The new
Gnome in 15.04 seems snappier and I like it. I could care less>>
>> about the cutting edge, latest Gnome, I just want it to run. I
am in the>> >> process of upgrading my computers from 14.04 to
15.04. 2 down and 2 to>> >> go. There are some kernel improvements
in 15.04 which help a couple>> >> issues I was having with 14.04
(1 is that network manager is somewhat>> >> broken in 14.04.2 The
via_velocity module will not reconnect to the lan>> >> after
suspend and another is with wifi on my laptop.)>> >>>> >> Stuff
that does not work or does not work 'correctly' in 15.04, IMO:>>
>>>> >> 1. I can no longer unload a module at suspend time. I
know this is a>> >> kernel problem and not Gnome, but it is a
problem for me. I used to>> >> be able to do this with 13.04,
but since 12.04, I can no longer get>> >> it to unload the
aic7xxx module before suspending. No matter what I>> >> put in
the |/etc/pm/config.d/modules, it will not unload. As soon as>> >>
I try to use that module, the kernel panics and locks up the>>
>> computer. It is an old card, but runs my scanner just fine.
It used>> >> to work correctly and now it only works after
boot and crashes after>> >> the first suspend resume cycle. I
can do it by hand and can also>> >> blacklist it so I cna load
it when I need it, but it should be able>> >> to be automated,
this is a regression.>> >> |>> >> 2. ||The Gnome login screen
needs a suspend time out. As it is, I have>> >> my users set
auto suspend after 30 minutes. It would be nice if I>> >>
could set that for The Gnome login screen as well via the Gnome
UI>> >> somehow. It has been this way for a while and it is a
regression, IMO.>> >> 3. The Gnome login screen does not have a
suspend option. All I can do>> >> is shut down or reboot from
the login screen.>> >> 4. The openjdk-*-jre install no longer has
a .desktop file for right>> >> clicking and launching *.jar
files in Nautilus, it must be created>> >> by hand to run
these files.>> >> 5. Please, please, please name all programs in
the UI the same as the>> >> cli... Please. It is tough to
click and try to launch something in>> >> the UI, have nothing
happen then if you want to diagnose the>> >> problem, you need
to grep all over the internet to find out what the>> >>
program name is to be able to launch from the command line to
see>> >> what errors are occurring. I do not have a specific
example right>> >> now, but could find one if you need. I
think one of them is 'files'.>> >> Just call it 'nautilus'.>>
>>>> >> Keep up the good work.>> >>>> >> Keith>> >>>> >>>> >> On
Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 10:19 PM, Ali/amjjawad <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>>>> >>
<mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>>> wrote:>> >>>> >>
Dear everyone,>> >>>> >> Before we start the planning for
this cycle (Wily Werewolf - 15.04),>> >> I'd like to run this
survey before anything else:>> >>>> >>
https://ubuntugnome.org/feedback-time/>> >>>> >> It would be
very important for me and everyone else to understand>> >>
what we have done, what we are doing and what we are suppose to
do>> >> in the future. Above all, we do need to understand
what *OUR USERS*>> >> think :)>> >>>> >> I am having very
limited time to spend so if the survey is bad or>> >> lack
some questions, etc .. please keep in mind that this is what my>>
>> time allowed me to do. I think I did my best and I'd like
to>> >> apologize in advance for any inconvenience.>> >>>> >>
You can *ALWAYS* write to us and send your feedback here, on
this>> >> mailing list:>> >>
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME/ContactUs>> >>>> >>>> >>
and/or *FEEL FREE to contact me* :)>> >>>> >>>> >> The survey
should *NOT* take more than _*3 minutes*_ from your time.>> >>>> >>
*Here is the direct link:*>> >>
http://goo.gl/forms/sXdsxPIkfZ>> >>>> >> You can only answer it
ONE time so please, make sure to read the>> >> questions
carefully ;)>> >>>> >> Thank you so much!>> >>>> >> -->> >>
Remember: "All of us are smarter than any one of us.">> >>>>
>> Best Regards,>> >> Ali/amjjawad
<https://wiki.ubuntu.com/amjjawad>>> >>>> >>
*http://kibo.computer* - http://torios.net - Ubuntu GNOME>> >>
<http://ubuntugnome.org/>>> >>>> >> -->> >> Ubuntu-GNOME
mailing list>> >> [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]
<[email protected]>>
<mailto:[email protected]
<[email protected]>>>> >> Modify settings or
unsubscribe at:>> >>
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>> > -->> > Ubuntu-GNOME mailing list>> >
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]
<[email protected]>>>> > Modify settings or
unsubscribe at: >> >
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome>>
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