Bart, in my case, If I've provided Gnome (p.e.) to 1000 users, in the 99.99% cases the OS installation was made by me and not by the final user.
In other cases (1000 more?) I hadn't the opportunity to teach the final user about Gnome environment, and I only provided brief printed materials. El 26/06/15 a les 19:48, Bart Schouten ha escrit: > If you think that's what an average user does, you have a very skewed > way of an average user. The whole idea of Linux is to provide a > customization that goes beyond "Oh, do I click on Internet Explorer?" > How many people using Gnome fall into this "average user" category you > hold? I would say 2% and after they've used the system for a month > they're no longer that. > > You have a very skewed vision or image of real life, unless you want to > make Kiosk computers. Anyone who is capable of installing Ubuntu Gnome > will know what Firefox is. It doesn't take long to get to know what e.g. > Evolution is, since it sports an email icon. > > The initial period of getting to know these applications is very short > compared to the actual time you ought to be using it. If someone cannot > install Ubuntu Gnome, you can be expected that they have a person who > did install it for them and who can introduce them to these > applications. After all, getting to know firefox and knowing its icon is > pretty essential to being tutored in using a computer. What if a person > uses Gnome for three months and someone asks what browser do you use? I > don't know, it's called Web Browser. That means the learning experience > of using Firefox is essentially disrupted because its identity is hidden. > > It makes no sense at all to name something after a category, I repeat. > > And most people who have used the system for three months and would have > experienced two different browsers, would definitely pick a favourite. > > They do care if they know, and using a computer is all about exploration. > > I repeat, sorry if I say so, but that "average user" does hardly exist. > You could call it "novice user" and novices do not remain that. > > You should not frustrate a user in learning more. You are treating > people like children but also children who are too stupid to learn. The > only thing the system is good for is a Kiosk computer (and perhaps quite > well). > > A novice user cannot install a computer. These are people that ask > friends for help in Installing Windows. They are too scared to do > otherwise. > > Seriously, you have a skewed image. This target audience does not exist. > > For example, most people who have used Windows for a few years (and > every teen has (almost)) will know what Firefox and Photoshop are. They > know Instagram, Facebook, they know many apps for smarthphones, they > know Whatsapp, the only program that doesn't use a distinctive name is > Messenger. (Facebook Messenger). > > These are brand names that get acquired very quickly. They are not > obstacles. You are blowing up the initial learning period to be a very > difficult thing, and it is not. > > Learning brand names is a natural process and everyone does it > everywhere all the time. Your cable company is not called "Cable > Company" because it is not distinctive and does not identify. > > How many people do you think have trouble learning whatever its name is > or what companies there are and what they offer? None. > > But naming it "File Manager" and "Web browser" introduces many > obstacles, while the opposite really has no drawbacks and only > advantages. It's only in your mind. I'm not sure if you have "asked" any > "average user". Typically, anyone who is involved with Linux is way > more advanced than that. Most people I meet do not know what Ubuntu is, > a few do, the more student minded. These people would never install it, > but may have someone who wants to install it for them. > > Then, that person would be responsible for introducing the person to the > system. I would not recommend a different system to anyone without > personally making sure they are introduced. > > So all that's left is Kiosk computers, where average or new or unknown > users get to use a computer that is workable fast without having a > work-in period. In that case it makes sense. Not for a personal install. > Not really. > > Anyway, these are just my thoughts again. I believe I'm pretty straight > in this and pretty clear and I believe you are alienated from regular > people if you believe any otherwise. > > Just give it a try and see how good it works. Any regular user can never > find the program in e.g. a process explorer or overview, pretty much an > essential feature. So the feature is broken. > > You break all kind of things with this and what is the benefit? It is > none. It is in your mind. Nobody really likes it except people who have > rationalized it. > > Sorry, but... It's really clear as daylight. It makes it a worse system > by far. The out of the Box Gnome experience is not all that good.... > > It is apparently a new concept that was tried and tested as a deviationg > from the standard and the norm and the accustomed and the regular way of > doing things in business and in life, and has the deviation really been > evaluated? I think not. It is just an idea. Nobody really knows if it > works and for whom, because the people who are advocating it are > definitely not that category of "average user". > > So it makes no sense. This target audience.... it is not you yourself, > and they don't even exist really. They are different people that are an > imaginging. Who knows these average users? That are interested in Gnome? > That know about Gnome? > > I don't know any. I know people who barely know how to open the internet > (a browser) and I would not give them Ubuntu Gnome without support, or > any form of computer without support really. > > I would not give my mother and father a computer without my help, > essentially. Those of my age, they can all use computers, none > excepted. In the age range of 30-5, there are no "average users". There > are only proficient users. So you also only cater to elderly people. > > At least, anyone who has gone to school and had to use a computer for > school knows their way around it. > > Reall, really skewed. > > My apologies. > > > Quoting Alfredo Hernández <[email protected]>: > >> I agree with Julien. Our purpose is to give a pure GNOME experience. The >> average user doesn't care if they are using Totem or VLC, they want a >> Video >> Player and they will most probably have only one video player installed. >> >> On 26 June 2015 at 17:33, Julien Olivier <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Yes, sorry, my explanation lacked an important detail: I reckon the >>> GNOME developers wanted to use generic names for first-party apps >>> only (and >>> thus, for one and only one app for each task). Third party apps are >>> still >>> displayed using their real name. >>> >>> I might be wrong though, or GNOME developers might also have changed >>> their >>> strategy since the last time I checked... >>> >>> >>> Le vendredi 26 juin 2015 à 16:04 +0200, Narcis Garcia a écrit : >>> >>> I believe there is a middle point for this: >>> >>> "Gedit text editor" >>> "Nautilus file manager" >>> "Firefox web browser" >>> etc. >>> >>> If someone names simply "Web browser" to Epiphany, how is named >>> Firefox?? In a bad names strategy, user could see this in an >>> applications menu: >>> Web browser <- This is Firefox (you must know) >>> Web browser <- This is Mirori (you must know) >>> Web browser <- This is Icecat (you must know) >>> ...no sense. >>> >>> It's very difficult for casual (or new) users this other extreme in a >>> bad names strategy: >>> Sylpheed <- This is an e-mail software (you must know) >>> Evolution <- This is an e-mail software (you must know) >>> Geary <- This is an e-mail software (you must know) >>> >>> >>> El 26/06/15 a les 11:13, Julien Olivier ha escrit:> Hi Bart, list,> > >>> the thing with names is that it's better when they actually *mean*> >>> something. An experimented user will immediately know that Firefox is >>> a> web browser or that Evolution is an email program. But normal >>> users will> have no clue about it :) Some apps use names that provide >>> clues as to> what the purpose of the app is, like Rhythmbox or Gedit, >>> but most don't.> > I think the recent trend among GNOME developers is >>> that the app name is> more like an internal code, not aimed at being >>> used in the user experience.> > Maybe a good way to fix your problem >>> would be to have a "Launch in> terminal" entry in the app's dash >>> icon, next to "New Window" and "Add to> favourites", possibly as a >>> GNOME Shell extension ?> > Le vendredi 26 juin 2015 à 10:25 +0200, >>> Bart Schouten a écrit :>> Quoting Narcis Garcia >>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected] >>> <[email protected]>>>:>>>> > I agree with Keith Grider in a >>> subject: " >>> please name all programs in the>> > UI the same as the cli (...) if >>> you want to diagnose the problem, you>> > need to grep all over the >>> internet to find out what the program name is>> > to be able to >>> launch from the command line to see what errors are occurring">> >>> >>> > This problem is worse with localized UI.>>>> Yes. It makes no >>> sense to name something "File Manager" instead of >> "Nautilus" >>> when Nautilus is a name you can love and a brand name. >> Kubuntu >>> (KDE) just puts a like subtitle next to the real name in the >> >>> menu to describe it. I don't think "File Manager" (or whatever) >>> makes >> much sense and you cannot love it. Only the most mediocre >>> computer >> users do not know what "file manager" or anything >>> with a name is and >> some of them don't even know what the button >>> "web" is supposed to do >> (in a kiosk computer). You can't really >>> cater to them. Those users >> can't use Linux anyway. People who >>> have to learn how to use a mouse >> and who cannot make >>> double-clicks without moving the mouse too much >> (it happens all >>> too common). I don't think that should be your target >> audience. >>> A proficient computer user that cannot use a mouse and does >> not >>> know what a file manager icon is supposed to do -- they can never >>> >> use linux. They couldn't use Windows. You'd only give them a Mac, >>> at >> best. I feel it is catering to the lowest common >>> denominator.>>>> Personally I think Gnome would be at least twice as >>> good if they got >> rid of those confusing names when there are >>> good names for those >> programs already.>>>> Just my opinion, as >>> well.>>>> Bart.>>>> >>> >>> >>> > El 25/06/15 a les 15:44, Keith >>> Grider ha escrit:>> >> Hi,>> >>>> >> I have been running Gnome >>> desktop under Ubuntu since 11.04. I did not>> >> like Unity and did >>> not like the Gnome fallback. Tried Elementary OS for>> >> a while >>> and came back to Ubuntu Gnome because they are so slow to>> >> >>> release Freya.>> >>>> >> The new Gnome in 15.04 seems snappier and I >>> like it. I could care less>> >> about the cutting edge, latest >>> Gnome, I just want it to run. I am in the>> >> process of upgrading >>> my computers from 14.04 to 15.04. 2 down and 2 to>> >> go. There are >>> some kernel improvements in 15.04 which help a couple>> >> issues I >>> was having with 14.04 (1 is that network manager is somewhat>> >> >>> broken in 14.04.2 The via_velocity module will not reconnect to the >>> lan>> >> after suspend and another is with wifi on my laptop.)>> >>> >>>> >> Stuff that does not work or does not work 'correctly' in >>> 15.04, IMO:>> >>>> >> 1. I can no longer unload a module at suspend >>> time. I know this is a>> >> kernel problem and not Gnome, but it >>> is a problem for me. I used to>> >> be able to do this with >>> 13.04, but since 12.04, I can no longer get>> >> it to unload >>> the aic7xxx module before suspending. No matter what I>> >> put >>> in the |/etc/pm/config.d/modules, it will not unload. As soon as>> >>> >> I try to use that module, the kernel panics and locks up >>> the>> >> computer. It is an old card, but runs my scanner just >>> fine. It used>> >> to work correctly and now it only works after >>> boot and crashes after>> >> the first suspend resume cycle. I >>> can do it by hand and can also>> >> blacklist it so I cna load >>> it when I need it, but it should be able>> >> to be automated, >>> this is a regression.>> >> |>> >> 2. ||The Gnome login screen >>> needs a suspend time out. As it is, I have>> >> my users set >>> auto suspend after 30 minutes. It would be nice if I>> >> could >>> set that for The Gnome login screen as well via the Gnome UI>> >>> >> somehow. It has been this way for a while and it is a >>> regression, IMO.>> >> 3. The Gnome login screen does not have a >>> suspend option. All I can do>> >> is shut down or reboot from >>> the login screen.>> >> 4. The openjdk-*-jre install no longer has a >>> .desktop file for right>> >> clicking and launching *.jar files >>> in Nautilus, it must be created>> >> by hand to run these >>> files.>> >> 5. Please, please, please name all programs in the UI >>> the same as the>> >> cli... Please. It is tough to click and try >>> to launch something in>> >> the UI, have nothing happen then if >>> you want to diagnose the>> >> problem, you need to grep all over >>> the internet to find out what the>> >> program name is to be >>> able to launch from the command line to see>> >> what errors >>> are occurring. I do not have a specific example right>> >> now, >>> but could find one if you need. I think one of them is 'files'.>> >>> >> Just call it 'nautilus'.>> >>>> >> Keep up the good work.>> >>> >>>> >> Keith>> >>>> >>>> >> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 10:19 PM, >>> Ali/amjjawad <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected] >>> <[email protected]>>>> >> <mailto:[email protected] >>> <[email protected]>>> wrote:>> >>>> >> Dear everyone,>> >>>> >>> >> Before we start the planning for this cycle (Wily Werewolf - >>> 15.04),>> >> I'd like to run this survey before anything else:>> >>> >>>> >> https://ubuntugnome.org/feedback-time/>> >>>> >> It >>> would be very important for me and everyone else to understand>> >>> >> what we have done, what we are doing and what we are suppose >>> to do>> >> in the future. Above all, we do need to understand >>> what *OUR USERS*>> >> think :)>> >>>> >> I am having very >>> limited time to spend so if the survey is bad or>> >> lack some >>> questions, etc .. please keep in mind that this is what my>> >> >>> time allowed me to do. I think I did my best and I'd like to>> >>> >> apologize in advance for any inconvenience.>> >>>> >> You >>> can *ALWAYS* write to us and send your feedback here, on this>> >>> >> mailing list:>> >> >>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME/ContactUs>> >>>> >>>> >> >>> and/or *FEEL FREE to contact me* :)>> >>>> >>>> >> The survey >>> should *NOT* take more than _*3 minutes*_ from your time.>> >>>> >> >>> *Here is the direct link:*>> >> >>> http://goo.gl/forms/sXdsxPIkfZ>> >>>> >> You can only answer it >>> ONE time so please, make sure to read the>> >> questions >>> carefully ;)>> >>>> >> Thank you so much!>> >>>> >> -->> >> >>> Remember: "All of us are smarter than any one of us.">> >>>> >>> >> Best Regards,>> >> Ali/amjjawad >>> <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/amjjawad>>> >>>> >> >>> *http://kibo.computer* - http://torios.net - Ubuntu GNOME>> >> >>> <http://ubuntugnome.org/>>> >>>> >> -->> >> Ubuntu-GNOME >>> mailing list>> >> [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected] >>> <[email protected]>> >>> <mailto:[email protected] >>> <[email protected]>>>> >> Modify settings or >>> unsubscribe at:>> >> >>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>> > -->> > Ubuntu-GNOME mailing list>> > >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected] >>> <[email protected]>>>> > Modify settings or unsubscribe >>> at: >> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ubuntu-GNOME mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: >>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome >>> >>> >> > > > > -- Ubuntu-GNOME mailing list [email protected] Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome
