don't you just love Friday discussions!!?? :D
i think it's normal and healthy to be somewhat skeptical, and it is
natural for the knee-jerk response to something that is being force-fed
to them to be rejection. heck, even babies may not right away eat the
apple sauce you try to stuff in them!
i think what is irking a lot of people in the community is the *way* in
which JSF is being marketed. oooh, i would even go so far as to say
that the evangelism is Microsoft-esque, but in a subtler way.
but even you admited about category 2. i think anyone falling into
this category has a right to be antagonistic about JSF. the type of
push that is being done right about JSF is primed at creating category
2 cases. i think this is pretty much the all-too-familiar scenario
that everyone knows.
does this really seem right?? ....
woodchuck
--- Craig McClanahan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Apr 1, 2005 12:48 PM, Frank W. Zammetti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Craig McClanahan wrote:
> > > Feel free to continue using Struts, however, if that floats
> *your* boat.
> >
> > It's not really as simple as that though, is it Craig?
> >
>
> Sure it is. People will continue to use Struts no matter what
> happens
> with JSF -- the world doesn't turn corners overnight.
>
> Also, remember that the world isn't binary. Even if JSF is "good"
> that doesn't make Struts "bad" -- it would just mean that Struts
> might
> be "no longer the best" (as many advocates of other MVC frameworks
> will already argue, even without JSF in the picture). And those
> people are right, for the use cases where the other frameworks do a
> better job.
>
>
> > You have a great deal of sway, your opinion carries a lot of
> weight.
> > You have earned that without question. So by you making
> proclamations,
> > even if veiled proclamations, people are going to listen and form a
> > conclusion on what you are *really* telling them. Their conclusion
> may
> > be wrong, but it will have an impact on them none the less. As
> someone
> > else said, the easy (and I think obvious) conclusion is that Struts
> is
> > nearing an end, JSF is what we should be doing.
>
> There's been lots of comments about what "everyone is saying" (here,
> about JSF, but in general about any technology). To make good
> decisions, however, it is useful to divide "everyone" into several
> categories:
>
> (1) Those who have evaluated the technology and can
> tell you exactly what they like and don't like about it.
> Of this population, some will choose to adopt it and
> some will not.
>
> (2) Those who were forced to use the technology, and
> because of their experience can tell you exactly what
> they like and don't like about it.
>
> (3) Those who haven't looked at the technology, and
> are only echoing what they've heard (either positive
> or negative).
>
> When a technology first becomes available, the number of people in
> category (1) is very small, and the "hype" around it (both positive
> and negative) is mostly from people in category (3). Over time, the
> number of people in category (2) grows if a technology becomes widely
> adopted, and the number of people with informed opinions grows.
>
> A pretty large number of existing Struts users came in as category
> (2)
> -- it was adopted as a company standard by many organizations, so
> there was no choice but to use it for that company's applications --
> and there are more than a few of them with legitimate technical
> complaints about Struts, especially from those who might have
> preferred something like WebWork or Tapestry, but were not allowed to
> use them.
>
> Basically, my advice is to pay attention to the folks in category (1)
> and category (2), and ignore the folks in category (3). But the
> ideal
> position for *you* to be in is category (1) -- try it out, and see if
> it meets your own needs, and use it *if* it does.
>
> > I think there is little question that you have taken every
> opportunity
> > to tell everyone that JSF is in fact "the future". There is no
> doubt in
> > my mind that you actually believe that. And I'm not about to say
> you
> > won't wind up being right! Time will tell.
>
> One could say that, beyond just saying this, I'm betting my career on
> it. My "day job" is being architect for Sun Java Studio Creator, a
> product that is very much based on JSF.
>
> But, given my role in both Struts and JSF (I was co-spec-lead for JSF
> 1.0), I would hope people consider me to be in category (1) on the
> above classification scale.
>
> > But, you do work for a company with a profit motive in JSF... How
> could
> > that NOT put some doubt in peoples' minds? Are we being lead down
> a
> > path that might not actually be the best technically, because their
> is
> > profit in it for someone? I don't know, and it worries me,
> especially
> > when one of the big proponents of said path is someone I very much
> > respect and listen to. But then there's the rub, right? Am I
> making my
> > decision based on a reasoned examination of the solution being
> offered,
> > or because I trust the person delivering the message?
>
> If you use JSF solely because *I* (or anyone else) says to -- or
> *don't* use it simply because someone says it is crap -- you're being
> a category (3) person. All I want you to do is evaluate it for
> yourself, and make your own decision.
>
> > This is the problem with JSF at this juncture... It isn't just a
> project
> > released to the world that takes hold, as Struts was. JSF is
> something
> > sponsored and pushed as a standard by a company that is in business
> to
> > make money, and by a person who works for that company, among
> others.
> > There HAS to be some doubt there, doesn't there?
>
> You might want to note that JSF is not just a Sun initiative. There
> were 40 companies in the expert group, the final vote on the
> 16-member
> JCP Executive Committee was unanimous in favor, and more than a few
> companies have products and component libraries based on it. In the
> Apache incubator you'll also see an Apache-licensed open source
> effort
> to create a compatible implementation.
>
> If you want to doubt me because I'm biased, that's fine. So go
> evaluate it YOURSELF instead of just listening to me!
>
> >
> > Am I alone in this thinking? If so I'll be happy to shut up and
> just
> > see how it all goes, but I have to think I'm not the only one...
> >
>
> It doesn't matter to me what anyone in Category (3) says, positive or
> negative. Success of a technology is measured by category (1)
> adopters, which (of course) leads to category (2) adopters later on.
> And it is already happening.
>
> So which category are you (directed at everyone, not just Frank) in?
>
> > Frank W. Zammetti
>
> Craig
>
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