There's been lots of comments about what "everyone is saying" (here, about JSF, but in general about any technology). To make good decisions, however, it is useful to divide "everyone" into several categories:
I have no problem with the categories you enumerate. And if I'm being honest I'd have to put myself somewhere between 1 and 3 (but not 2 :) ). Meaning, I have looked at it, have evaluated it to a degree, but have not literally done anything with it. I've also done the same with ASP.Net, but there at least I've actually got my hands dirty a bit. That experience probably pushes me a little bit towards category 1 in that while I don't have actual experience with JSF I at least have it with a technology that at its core has many of the same ideas involved.
In any case, I haven't been in a position to make any decision about JSF one way or another, but the day is probably coming, so I have a vested interest for certain.
My fear is not of being in category 1 and making a decision. That's where I *want* to be. It's in being forced into category 2, and not even by my boss telling me how it's gonna be but rather by force of wills in the industry to push the agenda (the motives for the agenda being largely irrelevant at that point).
As I said in the previous post... I have no problem if JSF where to be released unto the world and people adopt it for whatever reasons and I'm forced to use it then because its a de facto standard. That's what happened with Struts. I have no problem with that, even if I can find 10 other frameworks that are better right now. I *do* however have a problem being told what way I should go based on a standard created by groups with notives other than pushing a good technological option.
One could say that, beyond just saying this, I'm betting my career on it. My "day job" is being architect for Sun Java Studio Creator, a product that is very much based on JSF.
I think your admission of this (and I realize its not the first time) is very much to your credit, for whatever that comment is worth to you.
At the same time though it also tells us that we probably need to be a little more careful when evaluating JSF than we otherwise might be because if the primary proponent of it is flat-out stating how important the success of JSF is to him personally, there is, I think, reason to be a bit more cautious than we otherwise might be.
But, given my role in both Struts and JSF (I was co-spec-lead for JSF 1.0), I would hope people consider me to be in category (1) on the above classification scale.
I dare say there can be no doubt about that :)
If you use JSF solely because *I* (or anyone else) says to -- or
*don't* use it simply because someone says it is crap -- you're being
a category (3) person.
I wouldn't even be so kind... I'd introduce category 4: those that seemingly can't think for themselves and will be led around by anyone that talks loud enough :)
> All I want you to do is evaluate it for yourself, and make your own decision.
This is the one statement I don't think your words (and the words of many others in the industry) bear out. Indeed, your statement before about beting your career on JSF would seem to be directly at odds with this.
I think there is a subtle... and I hesitate to use this word because its more sinister than my intent... manipulation going on here... It is clearly in your interest, and the interest of many in the industry, to convince as much of the world that JSF is the way to go. That doesn't jive, as near as I can see, with wanting people to simply "evaluate it for themselves and make the decision".
You might want to note that JSF is not just a Sun initiative.
Very true, I apologize if I gave any impression otherwise.
If you want to doubt me because I'm biased, that's fine. So go evaluate it YOURSELF instead of just listening to me!
Here's the thing... On a personal note, I actually don't doubt you. As you youself said, you have a personal stake in the success of JSF. But, that fact is NOT incompatible with the idea that you honestly do believe in the superiority of JSF. I absolutely have no cause to doubt your word, and if you say JSF is better than whats out there now, we can argue about the factual basis of the statement all day long, but I would in no way doubt your belief in your statement.
The problem, to me, boils down to this: JSF isn't being offered up as a solution for people to evaluate and decide to use or not use, it is being offered as *THE* solution. We can call it a "standard" until the cows come home, and I suppose it is technically, but if its being promoted as the solution to all our woes and force-fed to us, that's not cool, to put as the hip kids do these days.
It doesn't matter to me what anyone in Category (3) says, positive or
negative. Success of a technology is measured by category (1)
adopters, which (of course) leads to category (2) adopters later on. And it is already happening.
Fair enough, and that's what I meant before by saying "time will tell". Whatever I've said here today could wind up being immensely stupid six months from now if JSF is everywhere.
Of course, the possibility of being wrong has never stopped me from speaking up before :) At least I know I'm not alone this time.
So which category are you (directed at everyone, not just Frank) in?
That almost sounds like a marketing slogan :) "Where do you want to go today?". "So which category are you in?". With Sun cooperating with MS a bit more these days, are they perhaps sharing marketing firms to? :)
(That last paragraph was nothing but tongue-in-cheek, if there was any doubt)
Craig
-- Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies http://www.omnytex.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
