+1 Christopher - my point exactly! On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 7:59 PM Christopher Chaltain <[email protected]> wrote:
> You can discount people who question your numbers if you want to, but I > find using statistics that you can't back up just undermines the point > you're trying to make. It's better to leave out the statistics > altogether then put in statistics that can be questioned and not > justified. I'd propose that people who are trying to help you with your > argument aren't just nit picking and you're discounting them at your own > risk. > > On 21/02/16 18:34, Eric Oyen wrote: > > I find that figure they have a bit low. The reason for that: the U.S. > Census. Still, it was a number I pulled out of thin air (on the fly) as a > means of impressing upon these folks that there are a non-trivial number of > us out here. > > > > Also, there are other kinds of print disabilities that the NFB isn't > counting, like dyslexia (which I also suffer from). > > > > I guess my whole point was that I wanted to impress upon these people > that ignoring a population or market comes with a cost (in the case of the > blind at all levels and abilities, thats about $5 billion a year from them, > their friends, families and associates). > > > > also, if you take a look at the total worlds population of the blind > (again at all levels of capability), the figure is somewhere north of 385 > million (estimated). so, a 6 million figure is not unreasonable. > > > > anyway, enough said. I stated the letter the way I did for a reason and > if you want to nitpick numbers, thats your problem. > > > > -eric > > > > On Feb 21, 2016, at 4:22 PM, Richard Turner wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> On the NFB web site, I grabbed the below numbers of visually impaired > adults in the United States. I know that not everyone, and likely not even > a majority are using iPhones: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> The number of non-institutionalized, male or female, ages 16 through > 75+, all races, regardless of ethnicity, with all education levels in the > United States reported to have a visual disability in 2013. > >> > >> • Total (all ages): 7,327,800 > >> The number of non-institutionalized, male or female, ages 16 through > 75+, all races, regardless of ethnicity, with all education levels in the > United States reported to have a visual disability in 2013. > >> > >> • Total (all ages): 7,327,800 > >> The number of non-institutionalized, male or female, ages 16 through > 75+, all races, regardless of ethnicity, with all education levels in the > United States reported to have a visual disability in 2013. > >> > >> • Total (all ages): 7,327,800 > >> (Sent from my iPhone 5S) > >> > >> On Feb 21, 2016, at 2:50 PM, Kevin Chao <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >>> Eyes-free@ has 3232 members: > https://groups.google.com/forum/?nomobile=true#!aboutgroup/eyes-free > >>> ViPhone@ has 2343 members: > https://groups.google.com/forum/?nomobile=true#!aboutgroup/viphone > >>> On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 2:24 PM Eric Oyen <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> I am using something called extrapolation based on a smaller sample > (in this case, several blindness related groups on Facebook, a dozen or so > mac and apple related blindness mailing lists and other data (including its > prominence of use at the colorado center for the blind). what I have found > is that there are far more blind iPhone users than there are blind android > users (part of the issue is the cost of add on accessibility on some > versions of android phones). I could probably set up a survey monkey page, > spread around the link and ask a few questions in the survey. That would > give me a better (and more credible) sampling. Right now, my numbers are > only preliminary and a liberal estimate at that. > >>> > >>> -eric > >>> > >>> On Feb 21, 2016, at 2:07 PM, Kevin Chao wrote: > >>> > >>>> How does 40M iPhone sales in US last year convert to 6M blind iPhone > users (US or global?)? > >>>> Logic is fuzzy... > >>>> On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 11:09 AM <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>> What is this app people are talking about? I can't seem to find the > original thread about this > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, > >>>> Ari > >>>> > >>>>> On Feb 21, 2016, at 10:26 AM, Eric Oyen <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> well, if they don't care about this issue, lets make them care about > something (like their revenue stream). attack that, and they most > definitely will care. > >>>>> > >>>>> -eric > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Feb 21, 2016, at 4:36 AM, Rajmund wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hello, > >>>>>> I take as they never have, and are not about to, care, either. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sent from an iPad > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 20 Feb 2016, at 8:12 pm, Eric Oyen <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I wouldn't exactly call their statement "honest". THe first part > of their statement is actually a bold faced lie. The tools are very > available to make their app accessible. the second half is more a statement > of intent than anything else. Its more likely that they never considered > use by the blind and are now being forced to admit to it (in a roundabout > fashion). btw, I haven't sent that letter yet. I was hoping to see more > responses on this before I did so. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -eric > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Feb 20, 2016, at 6:40 AM, rajmund wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>>>> LOL, least they were honest, and didn't just say, "Will do it in > the next update." > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Sent from a BrailleNote > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>> From: Eric Oyen <[email protected] > >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>>>>> Date sent: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 10:54:38 -0700 > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Unacceptable Response from Issuu Support Team > Regarding VoiceOverAccessibility > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> here is a copy of a letter that I propose sending to this > company. Might I also suggest hitting up their ratings area on the app > store and posting a 0 star rating with a list of complaints. the more that > show up there, the greater their incentive to change their attitude (and > development cycle). Also, for anyone using the Android version of this > app, doing the same on the android store should also have a similar > impact. SOmeone could also start a change.org petition. The more > attention that is brought to bear on this, the more likely it is that they > will be forced to deal with this.. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> here is the letter: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> *** > >>>>>>>> Gentlemen, > >>>>>>>> I recently read a response you sent another user about > accessibility (or the lack of it) in your application platform. I would > also like to be able to use your platform, but find that none of the > controls or options are accessible. Considering that apple published (free > of charge mind you) their API on how to interface with their screen reader, > there is no excuse for your lack of accessibility. In fact, your > statement: " > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Unfortunately we don't have a way for those with visual > impairments to use screen reading technology or have a way to make our site > accessible at this time. We also haven't been informed of any plans to add > that functionality any time soon." > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I must point out that your statement above is a slap in the face > of any blind user who may have to depend on your application to read > specific publications. Also, as you do business in the US and contract > with public institutions (schools, colleges, etc.), you are required to > abide by the terms of the US AMericans with Disabilities act (as amended > 1996). I am only pointing this out to you to bring to your attention that > someone else might decide your wallet would make a tempting target. This > is not a threat, this is advice you really should heed. Now, the way I see > it, you don't have any choice. THere is already a push on to get other > blind users to write in and hit you u up on this issue. Considering the > number of blindness related blogs, email lists and social pages (on > Facebook and other social media), this means you might be forced to deal > with this sooner (rather than later). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> FYI, data regarding accessibility on iOS is available here: > https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/UserExperie > >>>>>>>> nce/Conceptual/iPhoneAccessibility/Making_Application_Accessible/ > >>>>>>>> Making_Application_Accessible.html > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> please do not do me the disservice of sending a response like the > one quoted above. Might I suggest that you change your plans now, while > you still can. Considering the number of blind iPhone users (at last > count, somewhere north of 6 million or so), I would hate for you to have to > drop everything to start dealing with 6 million angry blind people. so, > your direction is now clear. take the steps (now) to make your product > accessible. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> thank you, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Eric Oyen > >>>>>>>> *** > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Feb 19, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Christine Grassman wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Dear All: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Issuu is an app which provides access to millions of magazines, > newsletters, etc., on virtually any topic you can think of. My son, who is > also a VoiceOver user, wanted to access his high school's newspaper which > is on the platform. However, it is in an image pdf. Furthermore, trying > to get around the app is nightmarish, and it does not appear that any of > the available resources is accessible. > >>>>>>>> I wrote to their support center, and this is the response I > received. My response to that unhelpful response is first, with the > response in the middle, with my original message at the bottom. I think > this is absolutely something which should be available to those who use > screen readers. If others agree, I think we should bombard them with > requests to make their platform accessible. > >>>>>>>> Christine > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> From: "Christine Grassman (issuu Support Team)" < > [email protected] > >>>>>>>> Subject: Update from issuu Support Re: Poor VoiceOver > accessibility > >>>>>>>> Date: February 19, 2016 at 10:16:27 AM EST > >>>>>>>> To: Christine Grassman <[email protected] > >>>>>>>> Reply-To: issuu Support Team <[email protected] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ## Please do not write below this line ## > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Christine Grassman > >>>>>>>> Feb 19, 16:16 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> With all due respect, there is no excuse for this. Apple makes > available to developers, free of charge, guidelines for making apps > accessible. There's absolutely no reason not to do this. > >>>>>>>> Christine > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Angel (Help Center) > >>>>>>>> Feb 19, 11:51 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi Christine, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Unfortunately we don't have a way for those with visual > impairments to use screen reading technology or have a way to make our site > accessible at this time. We also haven't been informed of any plans to add > that functionality any time soon. I'm so very sorry about that. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> If we do introduce this functionality at any point, we will put > up an announcement on our blog (blog.issuu.com) and on our help center ( > help.issuu.com), so please do keep checking these places for updates. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Please don't hesitate to write back if you have any other > questions, and we'd be happy to assist you. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Best regards, > >>>>>>>> Angel > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> issuu is on iOS and Android. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> To learn more about issuu, please visit our Help Center. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Christine Grassman > >>>>>>>> Feb 15, 22:42 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I am blind, as are my children. We use iPhones with VoiceOver > accessibility to access text. I am deeply disappointed that Issuu is not > voiceover accessible. Only some features are accessible, and one cannot > find and read magazines. In this day and age, this is unacceptable. > Information should be accessible to us just as to others. > >>>>>>>> There is no reason why the text of your millions of publications > should not be accessible using a screen reader. I hope that you will > address this as quickly as possible. > >>>>>>>> Christine Grassman > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> This email is a service from Help Center. Delivered by Zendesk. > >>>>>>>> [J5P6X7-GL7J] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the V > iPhone list. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this > list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact > the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is > Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at [email protected] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: > >>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > >>>>>>>> --- > >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google Groups "VIPhone" group. > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to [email protected]. > >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the V > iPhone list.. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this > list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact > the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is > Cara Quinn - 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you can reach Cara at [email protected] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: > >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > >>>>>> --- > >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "VIPhone" group. > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to [email protected]. > >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> The following information is important for all members of the V > iPhone list. > >>>>> > >>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this > list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact > the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > >>>>> > >>>>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara > Quinn - you can reach Cara at [email protected] > >>>>> > >>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: > >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > >>>>> --- > >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "VIPhone" group. > >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to [email protected]. > >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> The following information is important for all members of the V > iPhone list. > >>>> > >>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, > or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the > owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > >>>> > >>>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara > Quinn - you can reach Cara at [email protected] > >>>> > >>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: > >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > >>>> --- > >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "VIPhone" group. > >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to [email protected]. > >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> The following information is important for all members of the V > iPhone list. > >>>> > >>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, > or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the > owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > >>>> > >>>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara > Quinn - you can reach Cara at [email protected] > >>>> > >>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: > >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > >>>> --- > >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "VIPhone" group. > >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to [email protected]. > >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone > list. > >>> > >>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, > or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the > owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > >>> > >>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara > Quinn - you can reach Cara at [email protected] > >>> > >>> The archives for this list can be searched at: > >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > >>> --- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "VIPhone" group. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to [email protected]. > >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone > list. > >>> > >>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, > or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the > owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > >>> > >>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara > Quinn - you can reach Cara at [email protected] > >>> > >>> The archives for this list can be searched at: > >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > >>> --- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "VIPhone" group. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to [email protected]. > >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >> > >> -- > >> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone > list. > >> > >> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, > or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the > owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > >> > >> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara > Quinn - you can reach Cara at [email protected] > >> > >> The archives for this list can be searched at: > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > >> --- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "VIPhone" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to [email protected]. > >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > -- > Christopher (CJ) > chaltain at Gmail > > -- > The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone > list. > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or > if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the > owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn - > you can reach Cara at [email protected] > > The archives for this list can be searched at: > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at [email protected] The archives for this list can be searched at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
