Is it not true that the mass is conserved when an electron and positron combine 
and two photons emerge?  The total mass-energy is the same.


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From: Philippe Hatt
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 6:09 AM
To: Jürg Wyttenbach
Cc:;;; Nigel Dyer;
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Podcast of interest

Dear Jürg,

Thank you for your answer.

On antimass :I fully agree with what you say .For me antimass is not negative 
mass ,but positive mass leaving our space time and creating as a consequence a 
hole of mass .This is what happens 
between electron and positron when collapsing to yield two photons evolving at 
the edge of our space time .The two positive masses annihilate because they are 
submitted to a process "up and down".The demassification phase of the positron 
comes in deduction of the massification phase of the electron.To better 
illustrate the phenomenon  let us consider the process of massification 
/demassification .A particle entering our space time acquires a positive 
mass.This particle is leaving our space time after a Planck instant through 
annihilation or demassification ,creating a hole of positive mass .So the two 
masses together are counted as zero .There is never a negative mass as the 
process needs first a creation of mass (massification ) in order the opposite 
process (demassification ) can take place .The mass demassified comes in 
deduction of the positive mass while never being negative.So, it is an anti 

On LENR ,as previously said the binding energy of alpha particle is built with 
the binding energies of Deuterium,Tritium ,He3 and NN. This NN binding energy 
is equal to the mass of a neutron mass minus 1800x 0.511 MeV .It was the 
subject of my previous mail to you.These four binding energy values are enough 
to explain the binding energy of every nucleus.It will be explained in the 
document I am preparing on binding energy and LENR.

See you soon in Paris,


Envoyé de mon iPadp

Le 24 janv. 2018 à 16:18, Jürg Wyttenbach <> a écrit :
Dear Philippe

Thanks for Your information. 

>From my side there are some very interesting findings regarding the magnetic 
>moments of the proton & 7 Lithium. The perturbation/deviation from expected 
>value is given 1) by math rules and 2) by a virtual proton/electron or a 
>proton + electron/neutron fluctuation! Thus such fluctuations as you describe 
>do exist.

The outcome for the proton clearly shows that the charge is always interacting 
with other (distant) charges. The magnitude (one factor in in proton case) of 
the interaction is given by the relativistic rest mass of the E-field, what is 
(equal to) the electron mass divided by 2 phi. This indicates why QM fails 
overall, when applied to a nucleus, without knowing the small factors. But this 
(exact) result is on thin ice, because we only have mediocre measurements of 
the proton charge radius. (Even worse some physicists still believe that muon 
proton-radius measurements are equivalent to proton/electron measurements...)

But the most important, what is independent of the measurements, is the 
mathematical proof, that all charge radii must be based on a (4D-) torus 
topology. I recently told Jean-Luc that he should use a torus topology for a 
better understanding of deep orbits. From a mathematical point of view the use 
of a sphere is less straight forward. But, at least for the proton a 4D-->3D 
torus projection seems to be OK as long as you keep the 4(6)D math rules.

Your work is true complementary and more basic than what we do. Energy finally 
is always a scalar and based on quanta, ergo there must be a building rule. 
Whether it is straight forward or not has to be shown.

I personally do not like the term anti-mass. In the 4(6)D model of the nucleus, 
we can show that all nuclear interaction (gamma levels) are exactly defined by 
the energy - holes (quasi negative energy) left behind during the building of 
the nucleus. These holes are connected to the existing mass/magnetic flux and 
must be (re-) filled to become active.
If you can define negative mass as being flux from "real" mass to holes, then 
all is fine. Negative mass would imply negative energy, what even for a 
positron (antimatter) does not hold.

An other difficulty is to directly compare the electron/proton mass with the 
magnetic moment. The nuclear magneton is defined as eh'/2mp  (Units J/T) what 
needs a field to make the masses compatible. If you make a quotient like 1.913 
/ 2.793 then this formal "problem" factors out. 

What I would like to remind everybody: To explain LENR we, at the end, need a 
formula which allows to calculate the stimulation fields needed, what includes 
their strength, topology, and most likely their frequency. (The same holds for 
the LENR energy releasing phase...) With knowing the exact energies, we can 
only derive some base frequencies! "Nothing" is said about the other factors.

Thus more work is needed!


Am 24.01.18 um 11:51 schrieb Philippe Hatt:

Dear Bob,

Thank you for your support ,again.I would also see Andrew Meulenberg address my 
theory on massification /demassification.
I met him in Sendai ,together with Jean-Luc  Paillet .We had a very interesting 
evening conversation .I saw immediately that their deep orbit theory had a 
tremendous interest (as well as Mill's and Jacques Dufour 's ones).The problem 
is that the deep orbit theory is considered by the majority of physicists as 
being in contradiction with the quantum mechanic( problem of ground state of 
proton).For me ,this apparent  contradiction can be solved in the following way 
.The proton has not only one electron moving around it ,but one at each (Plank) 
 instant.In other terms there is a mechanism creating one electron and one 
proton from the neutron  at each instant.The  mass of that electron is 
challenged by antimass to become an anti neutrino (which has then a mass and an 
antimass ,hence 0 mass).The charge of that electron is challenged by an anti 
charge (positive ) ,the whole being added as a wave to the former wave created 
by the former electron and its anti electron , hence the wave of the electron 
constantly changing.Indeed the problem is that electron and positron are 
considered as having the same mass and only opposite charges.So ,how can they 
annihilate ? My explanation is that the two masses are the same ,nevertheless 
one is entering our space time ,the other is going out of it .As a result two 
photons are created evolving at the edge of our space time (no mass=no time for 
the photon ,even if we see that time is existing for the photon). This has 
consequences on speed of light versus speed of each photon , depending for me 
on the frequency of each photon .Also ,the frequency is related to the energy 
of the photon,just because there are "more photons in one photon "if the 
frequency is high.

Let us come back to the nucleon ,i.e. a neutron creating at each quantized time 
a proton and an electron challenged the instant later in order to create an 
antineutrino and again a neutron .The process is continuous ,beginning again 
and again with the same result .This amazing process solves a lot of problems 
.Why is the electron not falling from its ground state ? Because it is replaced 
by another .This second electron appears not at the same place as the former 
one ,leaving a loophole .This is "classily " explained by Heisenberg's 
uncertainty .For me this is just as valid explanation as "we do not 
know".Einstein was right ,the quantum mechanic is not complete .

The deep orbit theory is ,for me ,considering that phenomenon of a neutron 
creating constantly a proton and an electron and an antineutrino .Actually 
there is a continuous ,"iterated "massification/demassification of the neutron 
,which in that case is limited to the "external"part of the neutron.If you look 
at my theory you see a neutron trunk made of 1800 electron masses ,plus an 
intermediary part of mass 71 electrons (18+18 versus 18+17)and a lot of minor 
masses which are accompanied by magnetic charges .This last part only is 
modified by the neutron/proton process .The total of these minor masses is 
3.137343 electron masses ,related to the dipolar magnetic moments of neutron 
and proton in the following way:I 1.913 I + I 2.793 I = 4.706 = 1.5 x 3.137343 
.In other terms mass was transformed into electromagnetism by antimass.Actually 
 mass + antimass = negative electromagnetism ,and antimass + mass = positive 
electromagnetism .The neutron is about mass + antimass ,hence its resulting 
mass of 939.5 MeV and its  abnormal dipolar magnetic moment of -1.913 ,the 
proton is about antimass + mass ,hence the slight loss of mass compared to 
neutron ,and its abnormal dipolar magnetic moment of + 2.793.

Antimass is not accepted as a concept .Nevertheless in the equation of Dirac 
mass is always "squared" ,leaving two solutions opened ,mass and antimass.

The binding energy is about the same phenomenon ,involving more masses ,a part 
of the 71 electron masses .Please ,see my website

I am about to write a book mainly on binding energy and LENR .Deep orbit is 
about neutron versus proton.LENR is about the massification/demassification of 
neutrons AND protons .It will be ready for the conference in June at Fort 
Collins .

Thank you for your attention ,

See you hoping lay soon,


Envoyé de mon iPadp

Le 22 janv. 2018 à 21:36, "" <> 
a écrit :
I echo Esa Ruoho’s thanks for identifying Ruby’s interview with Muelenberg.  
His latest papers in Jed’s library of LENR papers are very excellent IMHO 
regarding LENR theory.  There is still some hand waving and some new terms that 
make them hard for me to follow.  
Meulenberg starts to look at spin energy and mechanisms linking this energy in 
nucleons to the orbital spin energy of atoms, molecules and crystals (lattices 
of atoms).
I would like to see Meulenberg address Philippe Hatt’s theory of massification 
with it’s predictions of proton and neutron mass, charge and magnetic moments. 
Philippe may have something to say about the following paper by Barut and Kraus 
from 1975, referenced by one of Meulenberg’s papers ; J. Condensed Matter Nucl. 
Sci. 24 (2017) 230–235
 (1975) 27.
The following paper is also relevant IMHO:
Bob Cook
From: Esa Ruoho
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2018 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Podcast of interest
Hi Jones and thanks for posting about this. 
There are three episodes of the Cold Fusion Now! Podcast available at  (and on iTunes )
e001 Dr. David J. Nagel of George Washington University in Washington, DC will 
be talking about The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions, an area of 
condensed matter nuclear science that has major scientific challenges ahead and 
yet holds a very real promise of a practical new ultra-clean energy technology.
e002 Dr. Michael McKubre, former Director of Energy Research at SRI 
International, previously Stanford Research Institute – where there continues 
an almost-thirty-years program of experimental research in LENR/cold fusion. He 
semi-retired to New Zealand in March 2016 and is currently consulting with 
international research groups.
e003 Dr. Andrew Meulenberg is an experimental physicist and LENR theoretician. 
He earned a PhD from Vanderbilt University in low-energy Nuclear Physics and 
spent 37 years in the aerospace industry as an independent consultant. He was 
also a Principle Scientist at Draper Laboratories (previously MIT 
Instrumentation Lab).
There's a fourth, fifth and sixth one, once some guy in Finland finishes 
editing them.
On 21 January 2018 at 03:49, JonesBeene <> wrote:
Ruby interviews Andrew  Meulenberg.
I like the deep electron theory and its variations far more than any other, 
whether it comes from Holmlid, Mills, Meulenberg, or someone else -  and AM 
seems to hint at a successful project which is in the works – perhaps based in 
India. Let’s hope it is real.

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Jürg Wyttenbach
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