I know how to read lips, but I really don't find it all that practical. Everyone just seems to ask where the fuck did I learn how to drive. It's nice though, that they are interested.
--- In [email protected], "Ellen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > You are completely missing my point, but that's OK. You are > reinforcing my perhaps implied point that deaf people communicate > fantasically with other deaf people, but they don't communicate so > well with hearing people. Is that really up for debate? You can > argue all day long that they don't feel that they should have to > communicate with hearing people, but if that is the case they are > cutting themselves off from the majority of the population. You > haven't said anything that contradicts anything I said. However, I > will say that saying things like "your disabled imagination and clear > lack of class" is unnecessarily cruel and mean spirited and insulting. > I am not insulting deaf people. I guess it is similar to moving to > America from another country and not learning English. Sure you don't > have to learn English, but your opportunities will be limited. You > can hang out with other non English speaking people and just talk to > them and only get jobs with other people who speak your language, but > you aren't going to convince me that this isn't limiting. I am fully > aware that deaf people have their own culture, communication, > organizations, etc. I never said they didn't. But they are exclusive > to deaf people presumably, unless hearing people want to be with a > group of people who only communicate in sign language, which they are > more than welcome to do. Deaf people may not fell disabled any more > than non English speaking people do, but I find it hard to believe > they don't feel excluded to some extent. People may not intentionally > exclude them, but if 2 people are talking and not facing the deaf > person so she can read their lips or they aren't using sign language > she will feel excluded. I don't have a narrow-minded view of what it > takes to live a full and rich life. Their lives may be as full and > rich as they could imagine. But don't you think some of them might > want to know what they're missing? Or at least be able to understand > what people are saying? Again, why is this different from wanting to > be able see if you are blind? Anyway, I think most deaf people learn > to lip read in any case, so I kind of think they are overreacting if > this is really an issue. > > Am I truly alone in my opinion? I have no idea if these protests are > justifiable or not, that's probably subjective. This whole lipreading > thing may be the least of it. For all I know she could be a terrible > president, I have no idea. But to say that learning to lipread or > whatever is trying to "pass for hearing" seems a bit extreme. > > > --- In [email protected], Eleanor Keyser > <eleanorkeyser@> wrote: > > > > Ellen are you serious? No, really? > > > > The Deaf community is more than just a group of people who have > trouble in the hearing world. It's an entire culture, with its own > language, arts, sports leagues, churches, and schools. Sign languages > are fully formed natural languages that have evolved wherever groups > of Deaf people have lived together. There are many sign languages, > and many dialects within sign languages. Many members of the Deaf > community (especially those who are congenitally deaf and learned a > signed language as their first language) don't feel disabled AT ALL. > They feel like they are constantly knocking heads with the "disabled" > label. Deaf people participate in a fully formed, beautiful culture > based on a common language. Gallaudet is one of the most important > institutions in the American Deaf community. Deaf people have a > tremendous amount of pride in Gallaudet, and to imagine it being > headed by a woman perceived as less than a full-fledged member of the > community is appalling. As I > > understand it, there are myriad other issues at stake for the > protesters, but their main fear is people like you. If you actually > can't see past your own narrow-minded view of what is necessary to > live a full and rich life, and what cultural experiences constitute > the best possible life, I suggest you refrain from letting other > people hear your nonsense, lest we pity you for your disabled > imagination and clear lack of class. > > > > And for the record, Signed Exact English is exactly that, a visual > version of English using English syntax, a syntax which is nothing at > all like the syntax of signed languages. Finger spelling is also > exactly what it sounds like--just English words spelled out with > fingers. In ASL finger spelling is used only for proper nouns, though > many proper nouns have signs as well. Being given a name sign is an > honor. ASL and other signed languages are just as complex and unique > as any language--they are not some lower class of English. > > > > Ellen <ellengoodman6@> wrote: That was a total non sequiteur. Do > you honestly believe that deaf > > people wouldn't rather be able to hear? And understand what people > > are saying if they aren't using sign language? This has NOTHING to > > do with how other people feel about them. This is just about > > ability. Lightening your skin to have better opportunities would > > just be about acceptance and changing how people feel about you > > (maybe, unfortunately). It wouldn't change your inherent abilities > > or strengths or skills. You still haven't answered my basic > > question. Regardless of what deaf people say to the media or in > > public, do you truly think that at least a good number wouldn't > > rather be able to hear what is going on around them, given the > > choice? Why is it any different than blind people wanting to be able > > to see? Again, should I have been content to just go along with what > > nature gave me and not be able to to fully function in society > > because I refused to correct my vision? There is something wrong > > with these people's hearing mechanism! They have to compensate or > > correct it, or they won't be able to fully participate in their > > society. Do I really sound prejudiced? You're certainly entitled to > > your opinion, but I think deaf people should be able to do everything > > they are capable of. I just think that if they want to take > > advantage of technology to improve their hearing or comprehend speech > > without sign language, they should be able to. Is that really a > > problem? Black people don't have something wrong with their skin or > > pigment, it's just different. I don't really think it is a > > complicated philosophical question, and you can argue just for the > > sake of arguing, but it is totally different than black people > > wanting to be white just to be accepted. At least that is my > > perspective, obviously. > > > > --- In [email protected], "dvm8375" > > wrote: > > > > > > By your logic, should black people lighten their skin to have > > better > > > social/professional/etc. opportunities too? > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Ellen" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I guess my issue is that deaf people who don't lip-read can only > > > > communicate with each other or people who happened to learn sign > > > > language out of interest or in order to communicate with deaf > > > people > > > > in their lives. Do deaf people really think lipreading is such a > > > bad > > > > thing? I wonder if most deaf people don't honestly wish they > > > could > > > > hear. I don't think any blind people don't wish they could see. > > > Yes > > > > of course in a concert you can hear the vibrations, etc., you can > > > see > > > > people clapping, you learn ways around it. But don't you think > > > you > > > > have more professional, social, etc. opportunities if you can > > hear > > > > what is going on around you? I realize there are two different > > > but > > > > related issues, lipreading and cochlear implants or other devices > > > > to "cure" deafness. I don't think I'm being harsh, just > > > realistic. > > > > You are welcome to disagree, but that is how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Daria Akers" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Fully enjoy? Humm.... they don't enjoy them like you do but > > > that > > > > > doesn't > > > > > > mean that they enjoy them less. I would insert the article > > > from > > > > the > > > > > Post a > > > > > > few months ago about the deaf interpreters at the Billy Joel > > > > > concert. Great > > > > > > article. > > > > > > Besides people who are differently-abled sometimes do things > > > that > > > > > we never > > > > > > even thought about..... This video is a perfect example: > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBv79LKfMt4 > > > > > > I've personally never thought about trying to learn to echo > > > > locate > > > > > because I > > > > > > don't have to but sure would be cool. > > > > > > Ok that had nothing to do with what we were talking about but > > > > it's > > > > > soooo > > > > > > COOL. > > > > > > Daria > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/12/06, Ellen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gay vs. deaf is apples and oranges--I'm not talking about > > > > > acceptance > > > > > > > vs. discrimination like is the issue with the gay > > community, > > > I'm > > > > > > > talking about being able to to fully participate in > > > society. > > > > Gay > > > > > > > people can fully participate in society, except for getting > > > > > married. > > > > > > > They can fully enjoy concerts, movies, plays, waves > > > crashing, > > > > rain > > > > > > > against the window, etc. It's not an issue of "getting > > away > > > > with" > > > > > > > being a hearing person, it's an issue of being able to fully > > > > > > > participate in/enjoy all life has to offer. IMO. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/weingartenchatters/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/weingartenchatters/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
