I wanted to be clear that I don't know if the students' grievances are legitimate or not--I'm not saying they don't have a case or shouldn't be protesting. I do think they are going a little overboard, and I do have a problem with the 1 particular complaint of Fernandes "not learning ASL until her 20's" as though that has any bearing on her candidacy, but apparently it does. That's all. I'm not trying convince anyone of anything, just expressing my opinion.
--- In [email protected], "Ellen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Right, I have no stake in the issue. I have no stake in the Iraq war > either, except for my tax dollars at work and my fellow citizens being > killed. In this case my fellow citizens are being denied an > education. Don't you have opinions about things you have no stake in? > I don't only care about things that affect me directly, contrary to > what you may believe. I have no stake in Darfur either, but I > certainly have an opinion about it. I care about education in general > and college education specifically, and these students are sabotaging > their college and their education for demands that I think are > unreasonable, at least the way they have been reported so far. I > realize this isn't remotely humorous, but then again neither are > several other topics that have been brought up in the past by people > who aren't me, like selling the emergency contraception at Walmart and > Target, and all the bad things that people went through in 2005. I've > been reading the Post articles and editorials and one writer mentioned > that it is not the students' place to name the president. While some > schools may take student input, it is invariably the final decision of > the board of directors or the committee or however it works at that > school. > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/12/AR2006101201484.html > > I especially like the point about handcuffing people who communicate > with their hands--so basically they are both handcuffed and gagged > with one click. > > --- In [email protected], "Stephanie Smilay" > <ssmilay@> wrote: > > > > This seems like a real emotional argument if neither of you has any > stake in > > the issue. Do either of you have deaf friends or family? That might > > explain it. > > > > I figure Ellen is doing what she does best, asking questions (on a list > > nominally devoted to humor) and trying to figure out the world. > Sometimes > > her lack of knowledge surprises me; sometimes her questions are actually > > interesting, when I have time to read them. I have to admit, from > my own > > ignorant perspective, that I agree with Ellen's underlying point: > > communicating with cultures other than your own is a good thing, even if > > (especially if) the "other" culture is the dominant one in society. > But I > > know from experience that experiencing the "other" is uncomfortable > for a > > lot of people, and perhaps that's what the students at Gallaudet are > worried > > about. I don't know. > > > > Anyway, I'm currently being micromanaged myself, and I tend to see > events > > through that prism, and I sort of feel sorry for the selection > committee, > > which is probably thinking, well, if you had a list of non-negotiable > > demands, why are you telling us NOW? > > > > Stephanie > > > > > > > > On 10/13/06, Eleanor Keyser <eleanorkeyser@> wrote: > > > > > > Perhaps you are missing something by being hearing that Deaf > people are > > > getting. Have you ever considered that? > > > > > > You are most definitely insulting Deaf people by making a whole > slew of > > > assumptions about their wishes, needs, and experiences. Your knee > jerk > > > reactions to most groups that aren't like you seems to be "They > may not be > > > like me, but I'm sure they wish they were." If you don't see this > as a > > > pattern in your thinking you need to read what you write more > carefully. I > > > know you think of yourself as tolerant, and I'm sure you are, but > you're not > > > very open minded. And yes, there is a huge difference between > those two > > > things. I don't think this makes you a bad person in any way, > just human, > > > but I hope that everyone, not just you, continually questions their > > > assumptions about others. If we did we might move past being a > suspicious, > > > limited culture of tolerance and into a culture of acceptance and > mutual > > > respect. > > > > > > I think it is also pertinent to point out that every person limits > > > themselves by making choices. No one can experience everything, and > > > everyone has a sense of their personal comfort zones. Most people > affiliate > > > themselves with groups that are familiar. A Russian immigrant to > the US may > > > live in a Russian neighborhood, associate only with other > Russians, never > > > speak English, and not feel the slightest bit "limited." Allowing > people to > > > make those choices, even when we disagree with them, is > fundamental to the > > > American philosophy of governance. Accepting that someone else's > choices > > > may not be ours or may be odd or limiting or less than worthwhile > may not be > > > required by law, but should be required by an individual's respect for > > > others. > > > > > > Also, in my experience, most Deaf people are excellent at > communicating > > > with hearing people, at least when said hearing people don't > assume the > > > person they're trying to communicate with is horribly disadvantaged. > > > > > > *Ellen <ellengoodman6@>* wrote: > > > > > > You are completely missing my point, but that's OK. You are > > > reinforcing my perhaps implied point that deaf people communicate > > > fantasically with other deaf people, but they don't communicate so > > > well with hearing people. Is that really up for debate? You can > > > argue all day long that they don't feel that they should have to > > > communicate with hearing people, but if that is the case they are > > > cutting themselves off from the majority of the population. You > > > haven't said anything that contradicts anything I said. However, I > > > will say that saying things like "your disabled imagination and clear > > > lack of class" is unnecessarily cruel and mean spirited and insulting. > > > I am not insulting deaf people. I guess it is similar to moving to > > > America from another country and not learning English. Sure you don't > > > have to learn English, but your opportunities will be limited. You > > > can hang out with other non English speaking people and just talk to > > > them and only get jobs with other people who speak your language, but > > > you aren't going to convince me that this isn't limiting. I am fully > > > aware that deaf people have their own culture, communication, > > > organizations, etc. I never said they didn't. But they are exclusive > > > to deaf people presumably, unless hearing people want to be with a > > > group of people who only communicate in sign language, which they are > > > more than welcome to do. Deaf people may not fell disabled any more > > > than non English speaking people do, but I find it hard to believe > > > they don't feel excluded to some extent. People may not intentionally > > > exclude them, but if 2 people are talking and not facing the deaf > > > person so she can read their lips or they aren't using sign language > > > she will feel excluded. I don't have a narrow-minded view of what it > > > takes to live a full and rich life. Their lives may be as full and > > > rich as they could imagine. But don't you think some of them might > > > want to know what they're missing? Or at least be able to understand > > > what people are saying? Again, why is this different from wanting to > > > be able see if you are blind? Anyway, I think most deaf people learn > > > to lip read in any case, so I kind of think they are overreacting if > > > this is really an issue. > > > > > > Am I truly alone in my opinion? I have no idea if these protests are > > > justifiable or not, that's probably subjective. This whole lipreading > > > thing may be the least of it. For all I know she could be a terrible > > > president, I have no idea. But to say that learning to lipread or > > > whatever is trying to "pass for hearing" seems a bit extreme. > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Eleanor Keyser > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Ellen are you serious? No, really? > > > > > > > > The Deaf community is more than just a group of people who have > > > trouble in the hearing world. It's an entire culture, with its own > > > language, arts, sports leagues, churches, and schools. Sign languages > > > are fully formed natural languages that have evolved wherever groups > > > of Deaf people have lived together. There are many sign languages, > > > and many dialects within sign languages. Many members of the Deaf > > > community (especially those who are congenitally deaf and learned a > > > signed language as their first language) don't feel disabled AT ALL. > > > They feel like they are constantly knocking heads with the "disabled" > > > label. Deaf people participate in a fully formed, beautiful culture > > > based on a common language. Gallaudet is one of the most important > > > institutions in the American Deaf community. Deaf people have a > > > tremendous amount of pride in Gallaudet, and to imagine it being > > > headed by a woman perceived as less than a full-fledged member of the > > > community is appalling. As I > > > > understand it, there are myriad other issues at stake for the > > > protesters, but their main fear is people like you. If you actually > > > can't see past your own narrow-minded view of what is necessary to > > > live a full and rich life, and what cultural experiences constitute > > > the best possible life, I suggest you refrain from letting other > > > people hear your nonsense, lest we pity you for your disabled > > > imagination and clear lack of class. > > > > > > > > And for the record, Signed Exact English is exactly that, a visual > > > version of English using English syntax, a syntax which is nothing at > > > all like the syntax of signed languages. Finger spelling is also > > > exactly what it sounds like--just English words spelled out with > > > fingers. In ASL finger spelling is used only for proper nouns, though > > > many proper nouns have signs as well. Being given a name sign is an > > > honor. ASL and other signed languages are just as complex and unique > > > as any language--they are not some lower class of English. > > > > > > > > Ellen wrote: That was a total non sequiteur. Do > > > you honestly believe that deaf > > > > people wouldn't rather be able to hear? And understand what people > > > > are saying if they aren't using sign language? This has NOTHING to > > > > do with how other people feel about them. This is just about > > > > ability. Lightening your skin to have better opportunities would > > > > just be about acceptance and changing how people feel about you > > > > (maybe, unfortunately). It wouldn't change your inherent abilities > > > > or strengths or skills. You still haven't answered my basic > > > > question. Regardless of what deaf people say to the media or in > > > > public, do you truly think that at least a good number wouldn't > > > > rather be able to hear what is going on around them, given the > > > > choice? Why is it any different than blind people wanting to be able > > > > to see? Again, should I have been content to just go along with what > > > > nature gave me and not be able to to fully function in society > > > > because I refused to correct my vision? There is something wrong > > > > with these people's hearing mechanism! They have to compensate or > > > > correct it, or they won't be able to fully participate in their > > > > society. Do I really sound prejudiced? You're certainly entitled to > > > > your opinion, but I think deaf people should be able to do > everything > > > > they are capable of. I just think that if they want to take > > > > advantage of technology to improve their hearing or comprehend > speech > > > > without sign language, they should be able to. Is that really a > > > > problem? Black people don't have something wrong with their skin or > > > > pigment, it's just different. I don't really think it is a > > > > complicated philosophical question, and you can argue just for the > > > > sake of arguing, but it is totally different than black people > > > > wanting to be white just to be accepted. At least that is my > > > > perspective, obviously. > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "dvm8375" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > By your logic, should black people lighten their skin to have > > > > better > > > > > social/professional/etc. opportunities too? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Ellen" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess my issue is that deaf people who don't lip-read can only > > > > > > communicate with each other or people who happened to learn sign > > > > > > language out of interest or in order to communicate with deaf > > > > > people > > > > > > in their lives. Do deaf people really think lipreading is such a > > > > > bad > > > > > > thing? I wonder if most deaf people don't honestly wish they > > > > > could > > > > > > hear. I don't think any blind people don't wish they could see. > > > > > Yes > > > > > > of course in a concert you can hear the vibrations, etc., > you can > > > > > see > > > > > > people clapping, you learn ways around it. But don't you think > > > > > you > > > > > > have more professional, social, etc. opportunities if you can > > > > hear > > > > > > what is going on around you? I realize there are two different > > > > > but > > > > > > related issues, lipreading and cochlear implants or other > devices > > > > > > to "cure" deafness. I don't think I'm being harsh, just > > > > > realistic. > > > > > > You are welcome to disagree, but that is how I feel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Daria Akers" > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fully enjoy? Humm.... they don't enjoy them like you do but > > > > > that > > > > > > > doesn't > > > > > > > > mean that they enjoy them less. I would insert the article > > > > > from > > > > > > the > > > > > > > Post a > > > > > > > > few months ago about the deaf interpreters at the Billy Joel > > > > > > > concert. Great > > > > > > > > article. > > > > > > > > Besides people who are differently-abled sometimes do things > > > > > that > > > > > > > we never > > > > > > > > even thought about..... This video is a perfect example: > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBv79LKfMt4 > > > > > > > > I've personally never thought about trying to learn to echo > > > > > > locate > > > > > > > because I > > > > > > > > don't have to but sure would be cool. > > > > > > > > Ok that had nothing to do with what we were talking > about but > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > soooo > > > > > > > > COOL. > > > > > > > > Daria > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/12/06, Ellen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gay vs. deaf is apples and oranges--I'm not talking about > > > > > > > acceptance > > > > > > > > > vs. discrimination like is the issue with the gay > > > > community, > > > > > I'm > > > > > > > > > talking about being able to to fully participate in > > > > > society. > > > > > > Gay > > > > > > > > > people can fully participate in society, except for > getting > > > > > > > married. > > > > > > > > > They can fully enjoy concerts, movies, plays, waves > > > > > crashing, > > > > > > rain > > > > > > > > > against the window, etc. It's not an issue of "getting > > > > away > > > > > > with" > > > > > > > > > being a hearing person, it's an issue of being able to > fully > > > > > > > > > participate in/enjoy all life has to offer. IMO. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/weingartenchatters/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/weingartenchatters/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
