I figure Ellen is doing what she does best, asking questions (on a list nominally devoted to humor) and trying to figure out the world. Sometimes her lack of knowledge surprises me; sometimes her questions are actually interesting, when I have time to read them. I have to admit, from my own ignorant perspective, that I agree with Ellen's underlying point: communicating with cultures other than your own is a good thing, even if (especially if) the "other" culture is the dominant one in society. But I know from experience that experiencing the "other" is uncomfortable for a lot of people, and perhaps that's what the students at Gallaudet are worried about. I don't know.
Anyway, I'm currently being micromanaged myself, and I tend to see events through that prism, and I sort of feel sorry for the selection committee, which is probably thinking, well, if you had a list of non-negotiable demands, why are you telling us NOW?
Stephanie
On 10/13/06, Eleanor Keyser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Perhaps you are missing something by being hearing that Deaf people are getting. Have you ever considered that?
You are most definitely insulting Deaf people by making a whole slew of assumptions about their wishes, needs, and experiences. Your knee jerk reactions to most groups that aren't like you seems to be "They may not be like me, but I'm sure they wish they were." If you don't see this as a pattern in your thinking you need to read what you write more carefully. I know you think of yourself as tolerant, and I'm sure you are, but you're not very open minded. And yes, there is a huge difference between those two things. I don't think this makes you a bad person in any way, just human, but I hope that everyone, not just you, continually questions their assumptions about others. If we did we might move past being a suspicious, limited culture of tolerance and into a culture of acceptance and mutual respect.
I think it is also pertinent to point out that every person limits themselves by making choices. No one can experience everything, and everyone has a sense of their personal comfort zones. Most people affiliate themselves with groups that are familiar. A Russian immigrant to the US may live in a Russian neighborhood, associate only with other Russians, never speak English, and not feel the slightest bit "limited." Allowing people to make those choices, even when we disagree with them, is fundamental to the American philosophy of governance. Accepting that someone else's choices may not be ours or may be odd or limiting or less than worthwhile may not be required by law, but should be required by an individual's respect for others.
Also, in my experience, most Deaf people are excellent at communicating with hearing people, at least when said hearing people don't assume the person they're trying to communicate with is horribly disadvantaged.
Ellen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:You are completely missing my point, but that's OK. You are
reinforcing my perhaps implied point that deaf people communicate
fantasically with other deaf people, but they don't communicate so
well with hearing people. Is that really up for debate? You can
argue all day long that they don't feel that they should have to
communicate with hearing people, but if that is the case they are
cutting themselves off from the majority of the population. You
haven't said anything that contradicts anything I said. However, I
will say that saying things like "your disabled imagination and clear
lack of class" is unnecessarily cruel and mean spirited and insulting.
I am not insulting deaf people. I guess it is similar to moving to
America from another country and not learning English. Sure you don't
have to learn English, but your opportunities will be limited. You
can hang out with other non English speaking people and just talk to
them and only get jobs with other people who speak your language, but
you aren't going to convince me that this isn't limiting. I am fully
aware that deaf people have their own culture, communication,
organizations, etc. I never said they didn't. But they are exclusive
to deaf people presumably, unless hearing people want to be with a
group of people who only communicate in sign language, which they are
more than welcome to do. Deaf people may not fell disabled any more
than non English speaking people do, but I find it hard to believe
they don't feel excluded to some extent. People may not intentionally
exclude them, but if 2 people are talking and not facing the deaf
person so she can read their lips or they aren't using sign language
she will feel excluded. I don't have a narrow-minded view of what it
takes to live a full and rich life. Their lives may be as full and
rich as they could imagine. But don't you think some of them might
want to know what they're missing? Or at least be able to understand
what people are saying? Again, why is this different from wanting to
be able see if you are blind? Anyway, I think most deaf people learn
to lip read in any case, so I kind of think they are overreacting if
this is really an issue.
Am I truly alone in my opinion? I have no idea if these protests are
justifiable or not, that's probably subjective. This whole lipreading
thing may be the least of it. For all I know she could be a terrible
president, I have no idea. But to say that learning to lipread or
whatever is trying to "pass for hearing" seems a bit extreme.
--- In [email protected], Eleanor Keyserwrote:> Ellen wrote: That was a total non sequiteur. Do
>
> Ellen are you serious? No, really?
>
> The Deaf community is more than just a group of people who have
trouble in the hearing world. It's an entire culture, with its own
language, arts, sports leagues, churches, and schools. Sign languages
are fully formed natural languages that have evolved wherever groups
of Deaf people have lived together. There are many sign languages,
and many dialects within sign languages. Many members of the Deaf
community (especially those who are congenitally deaf and learned a
signed language as their first language) don't feel disabled AT ALL.
They feel like they are constantly knocking heads with the "disabled"
label. Deaf people participate in a fully formed, beautiful culture
based on a common language. Gallaudet is one of the most important
institutions in the American Deaf community. Deaf people have a
tremendous amount of pride in Gallaudet, and to imagine it being
headed by a woman perceived as less than a full-fledged member of the
community is appalling. As I
> understand it, there are myriad other issues at stake for the
protesters, but their main fear is people like you. If you actually
can't see past your own narrow-minded view of what is necessary to
live a full and rich life, and what cultural experiences constitute
the best possible life, I suggest you refrain from letting other
people hear your nonsense, lest we pity you for your disabled
imagination and clear lack of class.
>
> And for the record, Signed Exact English is exactly that, a visual
version of English using English syntax, a syntax which is nothing at
all like the syntax of signed languages. Finger spelling is also
exactly what it sounds like--just English words spelled out with
fingers. In ASL finger spelling is used only for proper nouns, though
many proper nouns have signs as well. Being given a name sign is an
honor. ASL and other signed languages are just as complex and unique
as any language--they are not some lower class of English.
>
you honestly believe that deaf
> people wouldn't rather be able to hear? And understand what people
> are saying if they aren't using sign language? This has NOTHING to
> do with how other people feel about them. This is just about
> ability. Lightening your skin to have better opportunities would
> just be about acceptance and changing how people feel about you
> (maybe, unfortunately). It wouldn't change your inherent abilities
> or strengths or skills. You still haven't answered my basic
> question. Regardless of what deaf people say to the media or in
> public, do you truly think that at least a good number wouldn't
> rather be able to hear what is going on around them, given the
> choice? Why is it any different than blind people wanting to be able
> to see? Again, should I have been content to just go along with what
> nature gave me and not be able to to fully function in society
> because I refused to correct my vision? There is something wrong
> with these people's hearing mechanism! They have to compensate or
> correct it, or they won't be able to fully participate in their
> society. Do I really sound prejudiced? You're certainly entitled to
> your opinion, but I think deaf people should be able to do everything
> they are capable of. I just think that if they want to take
> advantage of technology to improve their hearing or comprehend speech
> without sign language, they should be able to. Is that really a
> problem? Black people don't have something wrong with their skin or
> pigment, it's just different. I don't really think it is a
> complicated philosophical question, and you can argue just for the
> sake of arguing, but it is totally different than black people
> wanting to be white just to be accepted. At least that is my
> perspective, obviously.
>
> --- In [email protected], "dvm8375"
> wrote:
> >
> > By your logic, should black people lighten their skin to have
> better
> > social/professional/etc. opportunities too?
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "Ellen"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I guess my issue is that deaf people who don't lip-read can only
> > > communicate with each other or people who happened to learn sign
> > > language out of interest or in order to communicate with deaf
> > people
> > > in their lives. Do deaf people really think lipreading is such a
> > bad
> > > thing? I wonder if most deaf people don't honestly wish they
> > could
> > > hear. I don't think any blind people don't wish they could see.
> > Yes
> > > of course in a concert you can hear the vibrations, etc., you can
> > see
> > > people clapping, you learn ways around it. But don't you think
> > you
> > > have more professional, social, etc. opportunities if you can
> hear
> > > what is going on around you? I realize there are two different
> > but
> > > related issues, lipreading and cochlear implants or other devices
> > > to "cure" deafness. I don't think I'm being harsh, just
> > realistic.
> > > You are welcome to disagree, but that is how I feel.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In [email protected], "Daria Akers"
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Fully enjoy? Humm.... they don't enjoy them like you do but
> > that
> > > > doesn't
> > > > > mean that they enjoy them less. I would insert the article
> > from
> > > the
> > > > Post a
> > > > > few months ago about the deaf interpreters at the Billy Joel
> > > > concert. Great
> > > > > article.
> > > > > Besides people who are differently-abled sometimes do things
> > that
> > > > we never
> > > > > even thought about..... This video is a perfect example:
> > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBv79LKfMt4
> > > > > I've personally never thought about trying to learn to echo
> > > locate
> > > > because I
> > > > > don't have to but sure would be cool.
> > > > > Ok that had nothing to do with what we were talking about but
> > > it's
> > > > soooo
> > > > > COOL.
> > > > > Daria
> > > > >
> > > > > On 10/12/06, Ellen wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > gay vs. deaf is apples and oranges--I'm not talking about
> > > > acceptance
> > > > > > vs. discrimination like is the issue with the gay
> community,
> > I'm
> > > > > > talking about being able to to fully participate in
> > society.
> > > Gay
> > > > > > people can fully participate in society, except for getting
> > > > married.
> > > > > > They can fully enjoy concerts, movies, plays, waves
> > crashing,
> > > rain
> > > > > > against the window, etc. It's not an issue of "getting
> away
> > > with"
> > > > > > being a hearing person, it's an issue of being able to fully
> > > > > > participate in/enjoy all life has to offer. IMO.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
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