On Nov 27, 2005, at 12:12 PM, Bartek Waresiak wrote:
john w. bjerk wrote:
A while ago on IRC some devs were discussing a branch of the
Elvish scout line that would be a more effective fighter. It
could attack and then use the rest of it's MPs to escape. While
driving across the country for Thanksgiving, i gave it some thought:
Such an ability seems like it could a heightened version of
Skirmish (as "cures" is a better version of "heals"), because
normal units loose all MP when standing next to an enemy, weather
or not they attack. It would be counterintuitive if this scout
could only ignore ZoC after it attacks someone-- so essentially
it has the skirmish ability and more.
Hello
First of all, I would like to talk about how current skirmish
works. Of course it ignores ZoC, but how can/do we use it? There
are I think 2 main usages of a unit with this ability:
- weak units killer - sneak behind line and kill units with low hp
which are precious for the opponent (lvl2/near advance/leader etc)
- unit blocker - very useful, it can 'sneak' at back of enemy group
of units (for example just before enemy is about to retreat) and
help defeat them;
Now if we would like to give it hit&run advantage, then first
usage - as weak units killer - would be really powerful. Now it is
balanced, that unit which sneaks behind lines to kill unit, has
high chance that he won't get out out of there alive. With hit&run
- I don't have to explain how it would look like.
What about if unit level up - will it be able to still move back?
Here comes my question - which units need to have this kind of
powerful ability? For sure not any of lvl1 units (image of saurians
with hit&run scares me). Honestly, I can think about giving this
for one/some of the lvl2 units, but I'm afraid of: jump ->
slaughter/heavy-wound -> go_back_on_defensive_terrian super units.
I think the problem won't be hit&run itself - it would be fact that
you want to combine it with skirmish.
So what if give it for an existing lvl2 unit?
The unit would need serious rebalancing - which would be rather
hard in this case. Firstly because how would we change the stats of
this unit? Giving less power while advancing would make hit&run
less powerful, but unit would lose its ability to deal serious
damage as lvl2 unit, thus would become average in most situations,
and really good in some others. Not making the unit resilient when
upgrading can be also a problem because it would become an easy
target for it's 16 XP.
We could make it have different disadvantage like less hp/
resistances - but then it would be hard for this unit to survive a
battle - this _can_ work, but I can bet, that this unit could not
operate alone then, or it would become numer one target during the
opponent's turn. Of course it is all about tactic - you can predict
it, and protect it. Problem is that it is big change of roles -
lvl1 skirmishers are rather good fighters able to survive on their
own - making it special instead of fighter unit (usually on MP lvl2
units advancing from lvl1 fighter line are one of first-line
blockers) would make much difference in role and the way that unit
line is designed.
Another thing is that while attacking, having few units of thise
kind can really turn tide of battle - you can attack with them,
then move back and you have free spot next to enemy again! It's
even hard to say how powerful this can be. Also there is still the
problem of balancing the cost of the unit. The Ability might be too
powerful, to make the unit's price reasonable.
Hit&run idea is really intresting one. But I have few proposals
from balancing point of view:
1.If we will combine it with skirmish (which I think will make this
ability too powerful, and I don't like this idea), don't add it to
existing unit - make branch which maybe would have only this lvl2 -
which wouldn't be able to advance to lvl3. This way player could
have possibility of chosing between unit with hit&run or without
it. (still even if unit can't advance, it doesn't mean it can be
overpowered)
2. Idea for making it more balanced if combined with skirmish -
disallow ignoring ZoC after attack.
3. Make it as separate hit%run ability.
In both last cases remain problem of freeing spot next to enemy
after attacking. 3rd one is IMHO best, because we don't combine 2
powerful abilites.
If this ability is created, the assasin would conceptually be a
good canidate to recieve it.
I completly disagree based on gameplay reasons. Reason that assassin
with backstab and poison isn't overpowered, is that it has to risk
getting killed during opponent's turn. Hit&run would make it just
poison factory without any disadvantage, and with hit&run he will
go behind enemy line - backstab, and go back to good defensive
position.
I didn't want to start a huge forum topic, so i added some
thoughts this way..
-eleazar
I agree - 'Ideas' section on fourm board is often not the best
place to
discuss such things.
Bartek
Unit balancing isn't my speciality, but a few comments...
* Bartek, it almost sounds like you think i'm proposing that
"hit&run" replace the current "skirmish" ability. If so, let me
clarify: I'm not. My comment about the assassin was just meant to
illustrate that non-mounted, very agile units could also reasonably
have "hit&run." Hit&Run might be a replacement for poison, or it
might go to a "ninja" branch of the thief, or to some other similarly
themed unit in a different faction. Flying units might also
reasonably have hit&run.
* Some of the many "under-construction" factions hypothetically have
this ability and call it "Parthian Shot".
* A question no-one has addressed is: can a hit&run unit attack more
than once? That would be very powerful if it could, but if it can't
it would seem very weird that it's the only unit that can't attack
after it's used up all it's movement points. Maybe a KISS vs
reasonably balanced judgement call.
* A hit&run unit by it's nature SOMETIMES ignores ZoC. Obviously,
the most KISS way to design hit&run is that it ALWAYS ignores ZoC.
Probably another KISS vs reasonably balanced judgement call.
* I think '"hit&run" is a better working name for this ability,
because it hits to the heart of what this ability does, but i hope
it's not the final name as it strongly implies Automobiles.
-Eleazar
