Hey Pierre-Yves,

I absolutely agree with you!

But then you actually have to say "Not like this!" when you do point out an 
error in your book.
I don't know if you have read this book, but in quite a few places the author 
shows you one (absolutely valid) way of doing something, then another one that 
is much better, cleaner, neater.
That has nothing to do with errors but with design concepts.

Additionally, Igor already pointed out earlier that the biggest problem with 
this is, that the author does not TELL you that he is just gonna do it like 
this now to demonstrate something.
You think "Well, that's the way to do it!" and then suddenly on the next pages 
you learn a better way! Forget what you learned before, do it like this...

Well, in my other posts I elaborated this a little more and I start to feel 
that I cannot really express what I am trying to say. *sigh*

What I want (:) is examples where the currently demonstrated concept is 
applicable and produces nice code that you would and should use in a production 
environment as well. Thus you learn the new concept, feature or whatever and 
also learn how and where to apply it properly.


// Che



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
> Of Pierre-Yves Saumont
> Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 10:53 AM
> To: wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great 
> first book onwicket
> 
> Che,
> 
> One thing I have learned is that you learn much more from your errors 
> than from your successes. The reason is that when you make an 
> error, you 
> have to figure why it didn't work and how to fix it. When you have 
> success, you already know the reason: it's just because you are very 
> good at what you are doing (which is often an error from 
> which you can 
> learn... much later and at a much higher cost:-(
> 
> I think showing what not to do is at least as important (and somtimes 
> more important) as showing the right way. It's even more 
> important when 
> the wrong way is the more evident one. As an author, one has 
> to show why 
> the user should not take this route, rather than just 
> forgetting about 
> it and let the user discover it later at higher cost.
> 
> Even very basic features are concerned. I am sure no one here 
> ever use 
> the default package. However, I think it is good in an 
> introductory Java 
> book to put the first HelloWorld class in the default package. It is 
> then much more evident to explain why one should not do this.
> 
> Pierre-Yves
> 
> Che Schneider a écrit :
> > Okay, understood. And you are right, there hopefullt (and luckily,
> > looking back at my code from former days :) always is a 
> progress and you
> > learn (baby-)step by (baby-)step.
> > 
> > However, I think that I chose to read a book in order to 
> skip a few of
> > these steps. Basically, I am trying to learn from other 
> peoples mistakes
> > and take advantage of their (superios) knowledge of a subject.
> > So would it not be better instead of letting me go (although guided)
> > through the  same steps I would go through by myself just 
> introducing me
> > to the right way of doing it?
> > Please don't get me wrong: I still think the approach to have an
> > application evolve while you read the book is absolutely fine!
> > However, I would have wished for examples that actually are being
> > written and then used (with only minor modifications) till the end.
> > 
> > About your example:
> > Of course you are right. You cannot overload a newbie programmer's
> > brainwith all the features of a language from the start. 
> But you could
> > show him ONE anonymous class. Then another in some other 
> place. When he
> > get's the hang of what it is and how and where to use it, 
> you can use
> > the classes he already wrote and introduce some more going "You have
> > already seen how anonymous classes work - now here is 
> another brilliant
> > place where you can use it. If you don't get it, go back to 
> chapter X
> > and reread the part about anonymous classes." 
> > Thus you still have code that is the way it should be AND 
> you get the
> > newbie to understand how to program properly and use concepts where
> > appropriate.
> > 
> > On the other hand, showing the newbie how to write the (possibly
> > complex) program without anonymous classes and then have 
> him refactor
> > the whole thing later to use anonymous classes he will not 
> understand
> > when to use and when not to use anonymous classes and he 
> would have to
> > go through the whole code again trying to understand it again.
> > 
> > But again, that is just my opinion. And I am difficult... :)
> > 
> > // Che
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
> >> Of Igor Vaynberg
> >> Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 9:24 AM
> >> To: wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> Subject: Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great 
> >> first book onwicket
> >>
> >> the point i was trying to make is that the progression itself 
> >> can be an important part of the learning - its the journey 
> >> not the destination stuff.
> >>
> >> compare the code you write now to the code you wrote two 
> >> years ago. i bet the one you write now is a lot more 
> >> efficient and much cleaner. now imagine yourself two years 
> >> ago looking at the code you write today. i bet you wouldnt 
> >> just go "oh damn thats the way i should do it from now on" 
> >> and instead go "umm...what the hell is this and how does it work" 
> >>
> >> a more concrete example. show a newbie java programmer code 
> >> full of anonymous classes. chances are they are not going to 
> >> understand it even though it can be the best approach to 
> the problem.
> >>
> >> the point that you make about it being unexpected is also 
> >> valid. it mightve been better if karthik gave you a heads up 
> >> that there are better ways of doing this later on. 
> >>
> >> -Igor
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 9/15/06, Che Schneider <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>    Hey Igor,
> >>    
> >>    Although I disagree about the 'real life' (that's what 
> >> you have the
> >>    design for: to avoid the constant architecture change), 
> >> you are right
> >>    that in a book it is a valid approach.
> >>    However, I very much dislike it unless you clearly state in the 
> >>    beginning that you are gonna do it in a messy way just to show
> >>    something. Otherwise people (me) spend time reading, 
> >> understanding and
> >>    learning what was said just to learn that 'Actually, 
> >> there is a much
> >>    better way of doing this.'. And that is what it comes 
> >> down to in the 
> >>    book sometimes: not 'different' ways but actually 'better' ways!
> >>    If you want to show a certain feature of the API, show 
> >> it in an example
> >>    that is an actual case where you would use it. Don't 
> >> just write code to
> >>    show the feature and then re-do it. I will never learn 
> >> when to actually
> >>    use the feature in real life then!
> >>    
> >>    But hey - apparently that's just me... :)
> >>    
> >>    // Che
> >>    
> >>    
> >>    
> >>    
> >>    > -----Original Message----- 
> >>    > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>    > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] On Behalf
> >>    > Of Igor Vaynberg
> >>    > Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 6:42 PM
> >>    > To: wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>    > Subject: Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great 
> >>    > first book onwicket
> >>    >
> >>    >       And as I stated in my last email, I personally do not
> >>    >       like the way of saying 'Let's do it like this!' and
> >>    > then a chapter later
> >>    >       you revoke it all because it can be done 
> >> quicker and cleaner 
> >>    >       differently.
> >>    >
> >>    >
> >>    > for an introductory book i do not think this is all that bad
> >>    > actually. you are learning the api. you figure out how to do
> >>    > things using the simple api, and the deeper you delve, 
> >>    > discovering more advanced features, you can simplify the code
> >>    > you have written before. isnt this what happens in real life
> >>    > as well? at least with this approach you see the progression
> >>    > instead of heaving the book go very very deep into some api 
> >>    > to explain how to do something simple efficiently and lose
> >>    > you in the middle of it.
> >>    >
> >>    > -Igor
> >>    >
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