Well, sounds like a horror story. I would personally never agree to get monetary reimbursement for participating in a WLM or a WLE jury.
Best regards Yaroslav On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 6:19 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <[email protected]> wrote: > Hey Yaroslav, > > It is (was) quite easy, actually. Referring to the specific case I > mentioned: > > > - The organizer (who was an ex-WMF staff and member of the > international WLE team) was being paid by WMF to locally organize WL > contests; > - The organizer was not transparent about this towards the community, > coaching and engaging members of the wiki community, who, in the belief it > was an all volunteer effort, would do his own work for free and greatly > help him fulfill his objectives; > - The organizer decided in a totally closed process who would be the > winners - these routinely included offwiki friends of the organizer; > - The jury, who allegedly participated in that closed selection > process, was also paid. Again, this jury routinely included offwiki friends > of the organizer; > - On at least one occasion, an exhibition place was rented by a very > expensive amount, which was never satisfactorily explained. Other costs > were also apparently overfactured. > > This was back in 2016. I don't believe it still works that way, thankfully. > > Best, > Paulo > > > > Yaroslav Blanter <[email protected]> escreveu no dia sábado, 3/10/2020 > à(s) 16:38: > >> Hi Paulo, >> >> I have difficulties parsing your post. For Russia, after we had serious >> issues with Wikimedia.ru (who, for example, at some point wanted to >> interfere with the decisions of the jury) we converged to symbolic prizes >> which we essentially buy out of our own pocket and send them using our own >> money (things like mugs). We (a group of self-selected people) are doing >> everything on our own and we are not using any funding. I do not quite see >> how we could misuse the competition, even if we wanted to. >> >> Best >> Yaroslav >> >> On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 4:22 PM Paulo Santos Perneta < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Forgot to say, but I'm one of the organizers of WLM for WM Portugal. >>> >>> As for corruption, I must say back in 2016 or around it I was contacted >>> offwiki on Facebook by a WLE/WLM organizer, enticing me to organize WL in >>> Portugal, and teaching how to milk the cow. That's how bad the situation >>> was. I'm glad things have changed since then. >>> >>> Best, >>> Paulo >>> >>> >>> Paulo Santos Perneta <[email protected]> escreveu no dia sábado, >>> 3/10/2020 à(s) 15:12: >>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> In WLM since 2019 we are totally transparent about the jury members >>>> that help on montage, and usually thank them for their precious help at our >>>> blog post about the competition. Since last year, we have been exchanging >>>> jurors with Tuscany and Wiki Classics, and had a lot of help from Brazil. >>>> This year we are also exchanging jurors with Brazil. I must say it's a >>>> total PIA to find jurors for this kind of competition, so we generally gave >>>> up with finding professional photographers (which had a lot of trouble to >>>> engage with the technical part of this, anyway) and are doing this with >>>> Commoners, Wikipedians and punctually with "outsiders", which may be >>>> photographers or not - could be data journalists, ppl from the academia, >>>> etc. - to experiment. A global bank of jurors would be a precious asset. >>>> >>>> After the last round in montage, the organizers do the final selection, >>>> using the montage results as a starting point. This is to avoid >>>> repetitions, bad quality photos, previously undetected copyvios, out of >>>> scope photos, and so on. >>>> >>>> I absolutely support transparency in the selection process, especially >>>> given past situations where corruption, game of marked cards and schemes to >>>> get $$ out of WL competitions were at least apparent - As long as it does >>>> not hinder the selection process, and does not create additional >>>> bureaucracy. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Paulo >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> effe iets anders <[email protected]> escreveu no dia quarta, >>>> 30/09/2020 à(s) 23:49: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> After getting feedback both on- and offlist, we arrived at the >>>>> following: the Montage developers will make a page available to each jury >>>>> coordinator, that they can copy and paste to a wiki page to share their >>>>> process settings easily. That way it's easy to be transparent. At some >>>>> point in the future, we will likely make this public by default. >>>>> >>>>> I do express the expectation that each national coordinator will >>>>> publish their jury members (either real life name or username). It may >>>>> well >>>>> be that we ask you to submit this list of jurors when you submit your >>>>> nominees (although we will not publish it on your behalf, that is your >>>>> responsibility). >>>>> >>>>> Warmly, >>>>> Lodewijk >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:01 PM effe iets anders < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> All great suggestions. >>>>>> >>>>>> In the past the WLM international team has also maintained a database >>>>>> of jurors to be backup. We had very little requests in recent years >>>>>> though, >>>>>> probably because so many people know organizers form other countries. If >>>>>> you're stuck, I would suggest to either ask someone you already know, or >>>>>> to >>>>>> ask this list. Most likely you have a response within 48h. But don't wait >>>>>> until the last minute, if you can avoid it. Jurors typically like a week >>>>>> to >>>>>> get things done (if the country isn't huge). >>>>>> >>>>>> Lodewijk >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 3:48 AM Rebecca O'Neill < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you Yaroslav, I will send you a separate email now! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Having the WLE team setting up a pool of jurors like that was so >>>>>>> helpful Anton. Yes, I could find the names and email other WLM >>>>>>> organisers, >>>>>>> but this system took that extra work away from me - which was hugely >>>>>>> appreciated, especially in our first year! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 at 11:45, Anton Protsiuk < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The international WLE team this year has tried to create a database >>>>>>>> of jurors from different countries for local contests. We had a Google >>>>>>>> form >>>>>>>> for these purposes (https://forms.gle/Pj61adjgYiE6Jn687) & asked >>>>>>>> local teams whether they needed help with jury. >>>>>>>> We haven't estimated the results yet, since the local selection >>>>>>>> process is still ongoing, but it seems to have worked well. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best Regards >>>>>>>> Anton Protsiuk >>>>>>>> Project Manager at Wikimedia Ukraine >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:05 AM Yaroslav Blanter <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If WLM Ireland is in September I can help as a juror. If it is in >>>>>>>>> October this could be more difficult because I am also in the jury for >>>>>>>>> Russia, and there is typically a lot of work there. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Generally, asking around (may be also on Commons) typically helps. >>>>>>>>> In the past I have been on jury for a few different countries. >>>>>>>>> Somebody >>>>>>>>> would just approach me and ask.If I can make it, I agree. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yaroslav >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mārtiņš Bruņenieks < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi, Rebecca! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have organized multiple WLM/WLE editions in Latvia. We have >>>>>>>>>> used Montage in most of them. >>>>>>>>>> After experiencing problems with jurors dropping out or being >>>>>>>>>> known at the last moment, we created new Wikimedia accounts just for >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> jury and sent the passwords to them. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Montage allows some editing of jurors after the round has started >>>>>>>>>> but results can be unexpected. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Mārtiņš >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 2:13 AM Rebecca O'Neill < >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Lodewijk, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As a slight aside to this, and perhaps something that might help >>>>>>>>>>> ease some of the worries around judging processes in other >>>>>>>>>>> countries, would >>>>>>>>>>> it be an idea to have a pool of international WLM Wikimedia jurors >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> could help judge other countries? Here in Ireland we have done this >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> Malta, exchanging jurors over the past few years, and for our first >>>>>>>>>>> WLE >>>>>>>>>>> this year we had Axel from Sweden be on our jury. You get the >>>>>>>>>>> benefit of a >>>>>>>>>>> fellow Wikimedian who understands the whole process, and who could >>>>>>>>>>> bring >>>>>>>>>>> some different expertise or perspective to a country's WLM. Having >>>>>>>>>>> someone >>>>>>>>>>> who is completely unfamiliar with your local built heritage means >>>>>>>>>>> they can >>>>>>>>>>> assess the images with a different take than someone who knows them >>>>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> After 6 years, we have found it harder to recruit a jury from >>>>>>>>>>> our pool of active Wikimedians and relevant expert judges from the >>>>>>>>>>> arts and >>>>>>>>>>> architecture sectors in Ireland. I know I would really appreciate >>>>>>>>>>> it if we >>>>>>>>>>> could "borrow" a juror from another Wikimedia group (in the past we >>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> had some UK help with this too with jurors). We have suffered from >>>>>>>>>>> jurors >>>>>>>>>>> dropping out of the process at the last minute or after judging has >>>>>>>>>>> begun >>>>>>>>>>> (which results in having to restart rounds in Montage), generally >>>>>>>>>>> it has >>>>>>>>>>> been those who are not Wikimedians who perhaps did not fully >>>>>>>>>>> understand the >>>>>>>>>>> commitment when they agreed. Not only is it frustrating, it's very >>>>>>>>>>> stressful. It may be less of an issue this year, given that the >>>>>>>>>>> deadline >>>>>>>>>>> for submitting to the international jury won't be at the end of >>>>>>>>>>> October. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hope that helps clarify some of the issues some of the smaller >>>>>>>>>>> countries can face over the years of WLM! >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>> Rebecca >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 2 Sep 2020 at 23:57, effe iets anders < >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Alexander, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As for the status of Montage requests: I suggest that you start >>>>>>>>>>>> a separate thread on that, and would like to leave this to the >>>>>>>>>>>> maintainers >>>>>>>>>>>> to respond to. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As for publishing the settings: I was imagining some kind of >>>>>>>>>>>> log-style publication, not a near write-up. This won't be pretty, >>>>>>>>>>>> but it >>>>>>>>>>>> will allow people to figure out how it worked out in practice. If >>>>>>>>>>>> we follow >>>>>>>>>>>> a logical naming convention, people should be able to puzzle it >>>>>>>>>>>> together. >>>>>>>>>>>> Ideally, the national organizers also publish their process on the >>>>>>>>>>>> website, >>>>>>>>>>>> but this log would be a way to verify that. But I accept your note >>>>>>>>>>>> that we >>>>>>>>>>>> may need to add a context explaining that more process may happen >>>>>>>>>>>> before/after this tool is used. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Lodewijk >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 3:17 PM Alexander Tsirlin < >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Lodewijk, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We also intend to publish by default the settings of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> montage jury tool, and the number of photos in each round that >>>>>>>>>>>>> the national >>>>>>>>>>>>> competitions have used. We're debating whether there should be an >>>>>>>>>>>>> opt-out >>>>>>>>>>>>> for this year. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> This is unrealistic, because jury process may involve several >>>>>>>>>>>>> campaigns that are later merged together (in Russia, we do it all >>>>>>>>>>>>> the time >>>>>>>>>>>>> in order to meet your submission deadline). Moreover, some of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> photos >>>>>>>>>>>>> can be accepted for the next round within Montage but excluded >>>>>>>>>>>>> later on if >>>>>>>>>>>>> we find that they do not depict cultural heritage. The end result >>>>>>>>>>>>> is that >>>>>>>>>>>>> any number you take from Montage will not match the number of >>>>>>>>>>>>> photos that >>>>>>>>>>>>> we publish (e.g., as a short-list). This will only lead to >>>>>>>>>>>>> confusion and >>>>>>>>>>>>> won't be of any use for anyone. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Since you mentioned Montage, let me also ask when two >>>>>>>>>>>>> important pull requests, which were done by one of our team >>>>>>>>>>>>> members, are >>>>>>>>>>>>> going to be merged into the code: >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/hatnote/montage/pull/169 >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/hatnote/montage/pull/175 >>>>>>>>>>>>> These are really, really important fixes. Without them I would >>>>>>>>>>>>> have a problem creating new Montage campaigns in October. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexander >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/2/2020 11:49 PM, effe iets anders wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> over the past years, we have had various requests to encourage >>>>>>>>>>>>> national organizers to be transparent in their judging processes >>>>>>>>>>>>> and who >>>>>>>>>>>>> sits on their jury. Most of the national organizers are currently >>>>>>>>>>>>> transparent about this already. In the past weeks/month, more >>>>>>>>>>>>> conversation >>>>>>>>>>>>> around this has continued with some concerns (valid or not) on >>>>>>>>>>>>> certain jury >>>>>>>>>>>>> processes. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In this light, the international team intends to institute a >>>>>>>>>>>>> new expectation for national organizers, namely to publish the >>>>>>>>>>>>> members of >>>>>>>>>>>>> their jury (be it their username or real life name) at some >>>>>>>>>>>>> point. We have >>>>>>>>>>>>> not figured out the practical details yet, but I can imagine that >>>>>>>>>>>>> while we >>>>>>>>>>>>> encourage publication on the website, we would ask national >>>>>>>>>>>>> organizers to >>>>>>>>>>>>> add a list of jury members to their submission to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> international jury - >>>>>>>>>>>>> which we then will publish as well. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We also intend to publish by default the settings of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> montage jury tool, and the number of photos in each round that >>>>>>>>>>>>> the national >>>>>>>>>>>>> competitions have used. We're debating whether there should be an >>>>>>>>>>>>> opt-out >>>>>>>>>>>>> for this year. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We will of course apply at least the same level of >>>>>>>>>>>>> transparency to the international jury. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Before we make this decision, I would like to ask for feedback >>>>>>>>>>>>> on this, and whether there are edge cases we should consider where >>>>>>>>>>>>> such transparency would be harmful. I'll take 1 week to gather >>>>>>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback on this, and then we'll make a final decision. You can >>>>>>>>>>>>> respond to >>>>>>>>>>>>> this on this mailing list, or privately to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Lodewijk >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonumentshttp://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> PhD in Digital Media >>>>>>>>>>> Project Coordinator Wikimedia Community Ireland >>>>>>>>>>> <http://wikimedia.ie> >>>>>>>>>>> She/Her >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> PhD in Digital Media >>>>>>> Project Coordinator Wikimedia Community Ireland >>>>>>> <http://wikimedia.ie> >>>>>>> She/Her >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >> > _______________________________________________ > Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments > http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >
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