Sure. The point is already made, anyway. effe iets anders <[email protected]> escreveu no dia sábado, 3/10/2020 à(s) 17:53:
> Hi all, > > while I appreciate the efforts of providing examples, I don't think we > need to dig deep into negative claims about previous competitions. This > risks going to the level of gossip-speculation (you're explaining your own > interpretation of what happened) and potentially harms individuals who are > being accused in a public forum without form of recourse or decent process. > > Paulo: please stop sharing your views on this example on this list. I > don't think it helps the discussion at this point. > > Thank you. > > Lodewijk > > On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 9:41 AM Yaroslav Blanter <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Well, sounds like a horror story. I would personally never agree to get >> monetary reimbursement for participating in a WLM or a WLE jury. >> >> Best regards >> Yaroslav >> >> On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 6:19 PM Paulo Santos Perneta < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Hey Yaroslav, >>> >>> It is (was) quite easy, actually. Referring to the specific case I >>> mentioned: >>> >>> >>> - The organizer (who was an ex-WMF staff and member of the >>> international WLE team) was being paid by WMF to locally organize WL >>> contests; >>> - The organizer was not transparent about this towards the >>> community, coaching and engaging members of the wiki community, who, in >>> the >>> belief it was an all volunteer effort, would do his own work for free and >>> greatly help him fulfill his objectives; >>> - The organizer decided in a totally closed process who would be the >>> winners - these routinely included offwiki friends of the organizer; >>> - The jury, who allegedly participated in that closed selection >>> process, was also paid. Again, this jury routinely included offwiki >>> friends >>> of the organizer; >>> - On at least one occasion, an exhibition place was rented by a very >>> expensive amount, which was never satisfactorily explained. Other costs >>> were also apparently overfactured. >>> >>> This was back in 2016. I don't believe it still works that way, >>> thankfully. >>> >>> Best, >>> Paulo >>> >>> >>> >>> Yaroslav Blanter <[email protected]> escreveu no dia sábado, 3/10/2020 >>> à(s) 16:38: >>> >>>> Hi Paulo, >>>> >>>> I have difficulties parsing your post. For Russia, after we had serious >>>> issues with Wikimedia.ru (who, for example, at some point wanted to >>>> interfere with the decisions of the jury) we converged to symbolic prizes >>>> which we essentially buy out of our own pocket and send them using our own >>>> money (things like mugs). We (a group of self-selected people) are doing >>>> everything on our own and we are not using any funding. I do not quite see >>>> how we could misuse the competition, even if we wanted to. >>>> >>>> Best >>>> Yaroslav >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 4:22 PM Paulo Santos Perneta < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Forgot to say, but I'm one of the organizers of WLM for WM Portugal. >>>>> >>>>> As for corruption, I must say back in 2016 or around it I was >>>>> contacted offwiki on Facebook by a WLE/WLM organizer, enticing me to >>>>> organize WL in Portugal, and teaching how to milk the cow. That's how bad >>>>> the situation was. I'm glad things have changed since then. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Paulo >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Paulo Santos Perneta <[email protected]> escreveu no dia >>>>> sábado, 3/10/2020 à(s) 15:12: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> >>>>>> In WLM since 2019 we are totally transparent about the jury members >>>>>> that help on montage, and usually thank them for their precious help at >>>>>> our >>>>>> blog post about the competition. Since last year, we have been exchanging >>>>>> jurors with Tuscany and Wiki Classics, and had a lot of help from Brazil. >>>>>> This year we are also exchanging jurors with Brazil. I must say it's a >>>>>> total PIA to find jurors for this kind of competition, so we generally >>>>>> gave >>>>>> up with finding professional photographers (which had a lot of trouble to >>>>>> engage with the technical part of this, anyway) and are doing this with >>>>>> Commoners, Wikipedians and punctually with "outsiders", which may be >>>>>> photographers or not - could be data journalists, ppl from the academia, >>>>>> etc. - to experiment. A global bank of jurors would be a precious asset. >>>>>> >>>>>> After the last round in montage, the organizers do the final >>>>>> selection, using the montage results as a starting point. This is to >>>>>> avoid >>>>>> repetitions, bad quality photos, previously undetected copyvios, out of >>>>>> scope photos, and so on. >>>>>> >>>>>> I absolutely support transparency in the selection process, >>>>>> especially given past situations where corruption, game of marked cards >>>>>> and >>>>>> schemes to get $$ out of WL competitions were at least apparent - As long >>>>>> as it does not hinder the selection process, and does not create >>>>>> additional >>>>>> bureaucracy. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Paulo >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> effe iets anders <[email protected]> escreveu no dia quarta, >>>>>> 30/09/2020 à(s) 23:49: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> After getting feedback both on- and offlist, we arrived at the >>>>>>> following: the Montage developers will make a page available to each >>>>>>> jury >>>>>>> coordinator, that they can copy and paste to a wiki page to share their >>>>>>> process settings easily. That way it's easy to be transparent. At some >>>>>>> point in the future, we will likely make this public by default. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do express the expectation that each national coordinator will >>>>>>> publish their jury members (either real life name or username). It may >>>>>>> well >>>>>>> be that we ask you to submit this list of jurors when you submit your >>>>>>> nominees (although we will not publish it on your behalf, that is your >>>>>>> responsibility). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>> Lodewijk >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:01 PM effe iets anders < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All great suggestions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In the past the WLM international team has also maintained a >>>>>>>> database of jurors to be backup. We had very little requests in recent >>>>>>>> years though, probably because so many people know organizers form >>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>> countries. If you're stuck, I would suggest to either ask someone you >>>>>>>> already know, or to ask this list. Most likely you have a response >>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>> 48h. But don't wait until the last minute, if you can avoid it. Jurors >>>>>>>> typically like a week to get things done (if the country isn't huge). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lodewijk >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 3:48 AM Rebecca O'Neill < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thank you Yaroslav, I will send you a separate email now! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Having the WLE team setting up a pool of jurors like that was so >>>>>>>>> helpful Anton. Yes, I could find the names and email other WLM >>>>>>>>> organisers, >>>>>>>>> but this system took that extra work away from me - which was hugely >>>>>>>>> appreciated, especially in our first year! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 at 11:45, Anton Protsiuk < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The international WLE team this year has tried to create a >>>>>>>>>> database of jurors from different countries for local contests. We >>>>>>>>>> had a >>>>>>>>>> Google form for these purposes ( >>>>>>>>>> https://forms.gle/Pj61adjgYiE6Jn687) & asked local teams whether >>>>>>>>>> they needed help with jury. >>>>>>>>>> We haven't estimated the results yet, since the local selection >>>>>>>>>> process is still ongoing, but it seems to have worked well. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best Regards >>>>>>>>>> Anton Protsiuk >>>>>>>>>> Project Manager at Wikimedia Ukraine >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:05 AM Yaroslav Blanter < >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If WLM Ireland is in September I can help as a juror. If it is >>>>>>>>>>> in October this could be more difficult because I am also in the >>>>>>>>>>> jury for >>>>>>>>>>> Russia, and there is typically a lot of work there. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Generally, asking around (may be also on Commons) typically >>>>>>>>>>> helps. In the past I have been on jury for a few different >>>>>>>>>>> countries. >>>>>>>>>>> Somebody would just approach me and ask.If I can make it, I agree. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Yaroslav >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mārtiņš Bruņenieks < >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, Rebecca! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I have organized multiple WLM/WLE editions in Latvia. We have >>>>>>>>>>>> used Montage in most of them. >>>>>>>>>>>> After experiencing problems with jurors dropping out or being >>>>>>>>>>>> known at the last moment, we created new Wikimedia accounts just >>>>>>>>>>>> for the >>>>>>>>>>>> jury and sent the passwords to them. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Montage allows some editing of jurors after the round has >>>>>>>>>>>> started but results can be unexpected. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Mārtiņš >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 2:13 AM Rebecca O'Neill < >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Lodewijk, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As a slight aside to this, and perhaps something that might >>>>>>>>>>>>> help ease some of the worries around judging processes in other >>>>>>>>>>>>> countries, >>>>>>>>>>>>> would it be an idea to have a pool of international WLM Wikimedia >>>>>>>>>>>>> jurors >>>>>>>>>>>>> that could help judge other countries? Here in Ireland we have >>>>>>>>>>>>> done this >>>>>>>>>>>>> with Malta, exchanging jurors over the past few years, and for >>>>>>>>>>>>> our first >>>>>>>>>>>>> WLE this year we had Axel from Sweden be on our jury. You get the >>>>>>>>>>>>> benefit of a fellow Wikimedian who understands the whole process, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and who >>>>>>>>>>>>> could bring some different expertise or perspective to a >>>>>>>>>>>>> country's WLM. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Having someone who is completely unfamiliar with your local built >>>>>>>>>>>>> heritage >>>>>>>>>>>>> means they can assess the images with a different take than >>>>>>>>>>>>> someone who >>>>>>>>>>>>> knows them very well. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> After 6 years, we have found it harder to recruit a jury from >>>>>>>>>>>>> our pool of active Wikimedians and relevant expert judges from >>>>>>>>>>>>> the arts and >>>>>>>>>>>>> architecture sectors in Ireland. I know I would really appreciate >>>>>>>>>>>>> it if we >>>>>>>>>>>>> could "borrow" a juror from another Wikimedia group (in the past >>>>>>>>>>>>> we have >>>>>>>>>>>>> had some UK help with this too with jurors). We have suffered >>>>>>>>>>>>> from jurors >>>>>>>>>>>>> dropping out of the process at the last minute or after judging >>>>>>>>>>>>> has begun >>>>>>>>>>>>> (which results in having to restart rounds in Montage), generally >>>>>>>>>>>>> it has >>>>>>>>>>>>> been those who are not Wikimedians who perhaps did not fully >>>>>>>>>>>>> understand the >>>>>>>>>>>>> commitment when they agreed. Not only is it frustrating, it's very >>>>>>>>>>>>> stressful. It may be less of an issue this year, given that the >>>>>>>>>>>>> deadline >>>>>>>>>>>>> for submitting to the international jury won't be at the end of >>>>>>>>>>>>> October. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hope that helps clarify some of the issues some of the smaller >>>>>>>>>>>>> countries can face over the years of WLM! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Rebecca >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 2 Sep 2020 at 23:57, effe iets anders < >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Alexander, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for the status of Montage requests: I suggest that you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> start a separate thread on that, and would like to leave this to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> maintainers to respond to. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for publishing the settings: I was imagining some kind of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> log-style publication, not a near write-up. This won't be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> pretty, but it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will allow people to figure out how it worked out in practice. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If we follow >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a logical naming convention, people should be able to puzzle it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> together. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ideally, the national organizers also publish their process on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the website, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but this log would be a way to verify that. But I accept your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> note that we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> may need to add a context explaining that more process may happen >>>>>>>>>>>>>> before/after this tool is used. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lodewijk >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 3:17 PM Alexander Tsirlin < >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Lodewijk, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We also intend to publish by default the settings of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> montage jury tool, and the number of photos in each round that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the national >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competitions have used. We're debating whether there should be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an opt-out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for this year. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is unrealistic, because jury process may involve >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several campaigns that are later merged together (in Russia, we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do it all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time in order to meet your submission deadline). Moreover, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> photos can be accepted for the next round within Montage but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> excluded later >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on if we find that they do not depict cultural heritage. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> end result is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that any number you take from Montage will not match the number >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of photos >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that we publish (e.g., as a short-list). This will only lead to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confusion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and won't be of any use for anyone. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since you mentioned Montage, let me also ask when two >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> important pull requests, which were done by one of our team >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> members, are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to be merged into the code: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/hatnote/montage/pull/169 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/hatnote/montage/pull/175 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These are really, really important fixes. Without them I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would have a problem creating new Montage campaigns in October. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexander >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/2/2020 11:49 PM, effe iets anders wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over the past years, we have had various requests to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> encourage national organizers to be transparent in their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> judging processes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and who sits on their jury. Most of the national organizers are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currently >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transparent about this already. In the past weeks/month, more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conversation >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around this has continued with some concerns (valid or not) on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain jury >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> processes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this light, the international team intends to institute a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new expectation for national organizers, namely to publish the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> members of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their jury (be it their username or real life name) at some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point. We have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not figured out the practical details yet, but I can imagine >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that while we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> encourage publication on the website, we would ask national >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> organizers to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> add a list of jury members to their submission to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> international jury - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which we then will publish as well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We also intend to publish by default the settings of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> montage jury tool, and the number of photos in each round that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the national >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competitions have used. We're debating whether there should be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an opt-out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for this year. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We will of course apply at least the same level of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transparency to the international jury. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before we make this decision, I would like to ask for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback on this, and whether there are edge cases we should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consider where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such transparency would be harmful. I'll take 1 week to gather >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback on this, and then we'll make a final decision. You can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> respond to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this on this mailing list, or privately to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lodewijk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonumentshttp://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> PhD in Digital Media >>>>>>>>>>>>> Project Coordinator Wikimedia Community Ireland >>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://wikimedia.ie> >>>>>>>>>>>>> She/Her >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> PhD in Digital Media >>>>>>>>> Project Coordinator Wikimedia Community Ireland >>>>>>>>> <http://wikimedia.ie> >>>>>>>>> She/Her >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments >> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >> > _______________________________________________ > Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments > http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >
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