It seems to me, that Lars in wording *> **you take a step aside and are no longer actively involved in any Wiki* means seasoned Wiki veterans, so *former* insiders.
On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:30 PM, Fred Bauder <fredb...@fairpoint.net> wrote: > Who is both "independent", knowledgeable, and not involved in a wiki? > > All you have to do is read a newspaper or magazine article about > Wikipedia to realize how hopelessly outsiders get everything wrong. > > Fred > > > Well, it doesn't matter to me if it is re-invention or not. > > To me the important thing is to put such an instance in action. > > And I know for a fact that it doesn't function today since I discussed > > this question with numerous people in the Wiki-org (like the stewards, > > the ombudsman etc.) > > > > That you are independent doesn't mean that you are not accustomed to how > > the Wikis work, I would guess that it actually is a prerequisite that you > > are. It just means that you take a step aside and are no longer actively > > involved in any Wiki and that you understand your position as an > > independent arbitrator. This process is handled without difficulties by > > other organizations. > > > > I am involved in work to counteract mobbing on the Internet in general > > and there are the Wikis today absolutely a part of the problem. > > > > > > Regards, > > Lars Gardenius > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Von: Fred Bauder <fredb...@fairpoint.net> > > An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > > Gesendet: 19:14 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 > > Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself > > > > > > That is just a re-invention of the Arbitration Committee. People from an > > external source nearly always have a fatal flaw; they don't understand > > how Wikipedia works. More informed people could man the arbitration > > committee, but that is a matter of documenting what the existing > > committee does and its effect and educating administrators, potential > > candidates and the existing committee members on the practical effect of > > their decisions. > > > > Fred > > > >> Well that is pretty easy: that Wiki-org will follow the example put up > >> by > >> many countries, companies and schools. > >> > >> Create an independent instance (i.e. in this case independent of the > >> Wikis) that you can turn to when you are offended, insulted, mobbed, > >> harassed or in any way mistreated by people in the Wikis. > >> > >> Since so many seems to misunderstand this question, it is not meant to > >> handle questions about content or policies in the separate Wikis, but > >> only about the normal human behaviour that we have agreed on shall be > >> present in a society (today not including the Wikis). > >> > >> It is also important that this independent instance shall be > >> responsible > >> for that the behaviour in the Wikis are within the boundaries of the > >> outside society, and therefore also has the right to intervene in a > >> Wiki, > >> when members of that Wiki cross that boundary. > >> > >> Today there is an increasing problem with mobbing on the Internet. I > >> don't want the Wikis to be an enclave where this is still allowed. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Lars Gardenius > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> Von: Fred Bauder <fredb...@fairpoint.net> > >> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > >> Gesendet: 16:04 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 > >> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from > >> itself > >> > >> > >> Lars, > >> > >> Please put your cards on the table. What are your suggested changes? > >> > >> Fred > >> > >>> I am also more interested in processes than discussing special cases. > >>> I > >>> think that was also the meaning of Rui Correia's letter starting this > >>> thread. > >>> > >>> To me there is obvious that there are flaws in the construction of the > >>> Wiki-organization when it comes to mistreatment and mobbing of users. > >>> I > >>> have discussed this question both with the stewards and the ombudsman, > >>> both tell me that they can't intervene in a Wiki, even if they > >>> themselves > >>> object to the behaviour of certain members of that Wiki. > >>> > >>> That means that there is no instance outside of the specific Wiki to > >>> which a harassed and mobbed user can turn. That is I think an > >>> structural > >>> error that I believe you don't usually find in any other big > >>> organization. > >>> > >>> I have also studied these pages where "dispute resolution" is handled. > >>> They do not impress me much. I agree with Rui Correia, it is the same > >>> people quarreling about the same things and the result is often nil. > >>> > >>> So I still think there need to be structural change to handle this > >>> type > >>> of problems. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Lars Gardenius > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> Von: "cro0...@gmail.com" <cro0...@gmail.com> > >>> An: Lars Gardenius <lars.garden...@yahoo.de> > >>> CC: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>; > >>> "fredb...@fairpoint.net" <fredb...@fairpoint.net> > >>> Gesendet: 15:15 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 > >>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from > >>> itself > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I've worked extensively with dispute resolution on English Wikipedia > >>> (I > >>> have conducted surveys and so on). If you have specific trends I would > >>> welcome seeing them (isolated cases where one side is unhappy with the > >>> result is not necessarily a sign the process is flawed, so I am more > >>> interested in overall trends but would welcome your opinion.) > >>> > >>> > >>> Steve ZhangSent from my iPad > >>> > >>> On 05/09/2013, at 10:59 PM, Lars Gardenius <lars.garden...@yahoo.de> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> Sorry, but I have seen several instances where it certainly doesn't > >>> work. > >>> Not in a way you would expect in a normal society anyhow. > >>>> > >>>>Regards, > >>>>Lars Gardenius > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>________________________________ > >>>> Von: "cro0...@gmail.com" <cro0...@gmail.com> > >>>>An: Lars Gardenius <lars.garden...@yahoo.de>; Wikimedia Mailing List > >>>> <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > >>>>CC: "fredb...@fairpoint.net" <fredb...@fairpoint.net>; Wikimedia > >>>> Mailing > >>>> List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > >>>>Gesendet: 14:22 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 > >>>>Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from > >>>> itself > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>I wouldn't say dispute resolution has never worked, nor does it not > >>>> work > >>>> now. It could use improvement, but the same could be said about > >>>> everything (and like most things, shortages of volunteers make things > >>>> harder) > >>>> > >>>>Steve Zhang > >>>>Sent from my iPad > >>>> > >>>>On 05/09/2013, at 6:18 PM, Lars Gardenius <lars.garden...@yahoo.de> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way. > >>>>> > >>>>> That "Wikipedia:Dispute resolution" mirrors a very naive approach in > >>>>> a > >>>>> worldwide organization. It has never worked before and it doesn't > >>>>> work > >>>>> now. > >>>>> > >>>>> To imagine that groups of people will not try and manoeuvre out > >>>>> persons that they don't like is very naive. > >>>>> That has not happened before in the history of mankind and the > >>> Wikis are no exception. > >>>>> > >>>>> Today noone is accountable for what they do to other > >>>>> Wiki-contributors, they are not even identifiable since they hide > >>>>> behind nome de guerres. Stewards have no authority to protect users > >>>>> from abuses and the same goes for the Ombudsman. (see also Rui > >>>>> Correia's email) > >>>>> > >>>>> So if the Wikis want to be a safe place for children and old folks > >>>>> alike, and that everybody shall be able to contribute on equal > >>>>> conditions, a more realistic organization to protect the users must > >>>>> be > >>>>> put in place. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards > >>>>> Lars Gardenius > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>> Von: Fred Bauder <fredb...@fairpoint.net> > >>>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > >>>>> Gesendet: 1:16 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 > >>>>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from > >>>>> itself > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> It is addressed but by a rather complicated and demanding process. > >>>>> See > >>>>> Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Not really workable for new users who > >>>>> bump > >>>>> up against well-established users who have bad habits, or have > >>>>> learned > >>>>> that nasty behavior pays off in being able to control content. > >>>>> > >>>>> Fred > >>>>> > >>>>>> I think you are completely right and it is a big problem in the > >>>>>> Wiki-world that is not being addressed by anyone in a leading > >>>>>> position. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>> Lars Gardenius > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>> Von: Rui Correia <correia....@gmail.com> > >>>>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > >>>>>> Gesendet: 23:08 Mittwoch, 4.September 2013 > >>>>>> Betreff: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from > >>>>>> itself > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Greetings to All > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not > >>>>>> compared > >>>>>> to > >>>>>> people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a > >>>>>> long > >>>>>> list > >>>>>> of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore > >>>>>> having > >>>>>> to > >>>>>> > >>> fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around > >>>>>> topis > >>>>>> is > >>>>>> fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a > >>>>>> higher > >>>>>> process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of > >>>>>> people > >>>>>> previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the > >>>>>> resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the > >>>>>> 'outsider' > >>>>>> that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets > >>>>>> 'good > >>>>>> advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, > >>>>>> to > >>>>>> temper > >>>>>> his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is > >>>>>> round > >>>>>> at > >>>>>> a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is > >>>>>> making > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a > >>> cabal. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that > >>>>>> one > >>>>>> encounters when you include something negative about certain big > >>>>>> corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and > >>>>>> everbody > >>>>>> else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we > >>>>>> know > >>>>>> there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear > >>>>>> you!". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more > >>>>>> importantantly > >>>>>> - > >>>>>> was > >>>>>> anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are > >>>>>> legions > >>>>>> out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we > >>>>>> know > >>>>>> that > >>>>>> they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here, > >>>>>> > http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word > >>>>>> "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go > >>>>>> back > >>>>>> to > >>>>>> XP. > >>>>>> For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to > >>>>>> XP > >>>>>> is > >>>>>> an > >>>>>> upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of > >>>>>> offending > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant - > >>>>>> not > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, > >>>>>> but > >>>>>> nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was > >>>>>> immediately > >>>>>> closed, > >>> labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on > >>>>>> that > >>>>>> page, but my entry was closed within minutes. > >>>>>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed > >>>>>> elsewhere. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, > >>>>>> I > >>>>>> don't > >>>>>> do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in > >>>>>> eight > >>>>>> languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a > >>>>>> number > >>>>>> of > >>>>>> initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am > >>> happy to see > >>>>>> that > >>>>>> things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy > >>>>>> Wales > >>>>>> in > >>>>>> South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy > >>>>>> with > >>>>>> a > >>>>>> novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sincere regards to all, happy editing > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Rui Correia > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> _________________________ > >>>>>> Rui Correia > >>>>>> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant > >>>>>> Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186 > >>>>>> Número de Telemóvel na Ãfrica do Sul +27 74 425 4186 > >>>>>> _______________ > >>>>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list > >>>>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>>>>> Unsubscribe: > >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > ?subject=unsubscribe> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list > >>>>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>>>>> Unsubscribe: > >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > ?subject=unsubscribe> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list > >>>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>>>> Unsubscribe: > >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list > >>>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>>>> Unsubscribe: > >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list > >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>