Lars, Please put your cards on the table. What are your suggested changes?
Fred > I am also more interested in processes than discussing special cases. I > think that was also the meaning of Rui Correia's letter starting this > thread. > > To me there is obvious that there are flaws in the construction of the > Wiki-organization when it comes to mistreatment and mobbing of users. I > have discussed this question both with the stewards and the ombudsman, > both tell me that they can't intervene in a Wiki, even if they themselves > object to the behaviour of certain members of that Wiki. > > That means that there is no instance outside of the specific Wiki to > which a harassed and mobbed user can turn. That is I think an structural > error that I believe you don't usually find in any other big > organization. > > I have also studied these pages where "dispute resolution" is handled. > They do not impress me much. I agree with Rui Correia, it is the same > people quarreling about the same things and the result is often nil. > > So I still think there need to be structural change to handle this type > of problems. > > Regards, > Lars Gardenius > > > > > ________________________________ > Von: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > An: Lars Gardenius <[email protected]> > CC: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]>; > "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Gesendet: 15:15 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 > Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself > > > > I've worked extensively with dispute resolution on English Wikipedia (I > have conducted surveys and so on). If you have specific trends I would > welcome seeing them (isolated cases where one side is unhappy with the > result is not necessarily a sign the process is flawed, so I am more > interested in overall trends but would welcome your opinion.) > > > Steve ZhangSent from my iPad > > On 05/09/2013, at 10:59 PM, Lars Gardenius <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Sorry, but I have seen several instances where it certainly doesn't work. > Not in a way you would expect in a normal society anyhow. >> >>Regards, >>Lars Gardenius >> >> >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> Von: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >>An: Lars Gardenius <[email protected]>; Wikimedia Mailing List >> <[email protected]> >>CC: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>; Wikimedia Mailing >> List <[email protected]> >>Gesendet: 14:22 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 >>Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from >> itself >> >> >>I wouldn't say dispute resolution has never worked, nor does it not work >> now. It could use improvement, but the same could be said about >> everything (and like most things, shortages of volunteers make things >> harder) >> >>Steve Zhang >>Sent from my iPad >> >>On 05/09/2013, at 6:18 PM, Lars Gardenius <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way. >>> >>> That "Wikipedia:Dispute resolution" mirrors a very naive approach in a >>> worldwide organization. It has never worked before and it doesn't work >>> now. >>> >>> To imagine that groups of people will not try and manoeuvre out >>> persons that they don't like is very naive. >>> That has not happened before in the history of mankind and the > Wikis are no exception. >>> >>> Today noone is accountable for what they do to other >>> Wiki-contributors, they are not even identifiable since they hide >>> behind nome de guerres. Stewards have no authority to protect users >>> from abuses and the same goes for the Ombudsman. (see also Rui >>> Correia's email) >>> >>> So if the Wikis want to be a safe place for children and old folks >>> alike, and that everybody shall be able to contribute on equal >>> conditions, a more realistic organization to protect the users must be >>> put in place. >>> >>> >>> Regards >>> Lars Gardenius >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> Von: Fred Bauder <[email protected]> >>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> >>> Gesendet: 1:16 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 >>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from >>> itself >>> >>> >>> It is addressed but by a rather complicated and demanding process. See >>> Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Not really workable for new users who >>> bump >>> up against well-established users who have bad habits, or have learned >>> that nasty behavior pays off in being able to control content. >>> >>> Fred >>> >>>> I think you are completely right and it is a big problem in the >>>> Wiki-world that is not being addressed by anyone in a leading >>>> position. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Lars Gardenius >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> Von: Rui Correia <[email protected]> >>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> >>>> Gesendet: 23:08 Mittwoch, 4.September 2013 >>>> Betreff: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself >>>> >>>> >>>> Greetings to All >>>> >>>> Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not >>>> compared >>>> to >>>> people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a >>>> long >>>> list >>>> of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side. >>>> >>>> In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave >>>> the >>>> project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore >>>> having >>>> to >>>> > fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics. >>>> >>>> In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis >>>> is >>>> fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a higher >>>> process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of >>>> people >>>> previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the >>>> resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the >>>> 'outsider' >>>> that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets >>>> 'good >>>> advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to >>>> temper >>>> his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is >>>> round >>>> at >>>> a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is >>>> making >>>> the >>>> WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a > cabal. >>>> >>>> And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email. >>>> >>>> I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that one >>>> encounters when you include something negative about certain big >>>> corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and >>>> everbody >>>> else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we >>>> know >>>> there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear >>>> you!". >>>> >>>> Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly >>>> - >>>> was >>>> anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are >>>> legions >>>> out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we know >>>> that >>>> they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here, >>>> http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles >>>> >>>> I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word >>>> "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back >>>> to >>>> XP. >>>> For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP >>>> is >>>> an >>>> upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade. >>>> >>>> I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of >>>> offending >>>> the >>>> entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant - >>>> not >>>> the >>>> first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but >>>> nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was >>>> immediately >>>> closed, > labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on >>>> that >>>> page, but my entry was closed within minutes. >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29 >>>> >>>> It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed >>>> elsewhere. >>>> >>>> So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, I >>>> don't >>>> do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in >>>> eight >>>> languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a >>>> number >>>> of >>>> initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am > happy to see >>>> that >>>> things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy Wales >>>> in >>>> South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa. >>>> >>>> So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with >>>> a >>>> novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy. >>>> >>>> Sincere regards to all, happy editing >>>> >>>> Rui Correia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> _________________________ >>>> Rui Correia >>>> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant >>>> Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant >>>> >>>> Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186 >>>> Número de Telemóvel na Ãfrica do Sul +27 74 425 4186 >>>> _______________ >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> Unsubscribe: >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> Unsubscribe: >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
