Who is both "independent", knowledgeable, and not involved in a wiki?
All you have to do is read a newspaper or magazine article about Wikipedia to realize how hopelessly outsiders get everything wrong. Fred > Well, it doesn't matter to me if it is re-invention or not. > To me the important thing is to put such an instance in action. > And I know for a fact that it doesn't function today since I discussed > this question with numerous people in the Wiki-org (like the stewards, > the ombudsman etc.) > > That you are independent doesn't mean that you are not accustomed to how > the Wikis work, I would guess that it actually is a prerequisite that you > are. It just means that you take a step aside and are no longer actively > involved in any Wiki and that you understand your position as an > independent arbitrator. This process is handled without difficulties by > other organizations. > > I am involved in work to counteract mobbing on the Internet in general > and there are the Wikis today absolutely a part of the problem. > > > Regards, > Lars Gardenius > > > > ________________________________ > Von: Fred Bauder <[email protected]> > An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> > Gesendet: 19:14 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 > Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself > > > That is just a re-invention of the Arbitration Committee. People from an > external source nearly always have a fatal flaw; they don't understand > how Wikipedia works. More informed people could man the arbitration > committee, but that is a matter of documenting what the existing > committee does and its effect and educating administrators, potential > candidates and the existing committee members on the practical effect of > their decisions. > > Fred > >> Well that is pretty easy: that Wiki-org will follow the example put up >> by >> many countries, companies and schools. >> >> Create an independent instance (i.e. in this case independent of the >> Wikis) that you can turn to when you are offended, insulted, mobbed, >> harassed or in any way mistreated by people in the Wikis. >> >> Since so many seems to misunderstand this question, it is not meant to >> handle questions about content or policies in the separate Wikis, but >> only about the normal human behaviour that we have agreed on shall be >> present in a society (today not including the Wikis). >> >> It is also important that this independent instance shall be >> responsible >> for that the behaviour in the Wikis are within the boundaries of the >> outside society, and therefore also has the right to intervene in a >> Wiki, >> when members of that Wiki cross that boundary. >> >> Today there is an increasing problem with mobbing on the Internet. I >> don't want the Wikis to be an enclave where this is still allowed. >> >> Regards, >> Lars Gardenius >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> Von: Fred Bauder <[email protected]> >> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> >> Gesendet: 16:04 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 >> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from >> itself >> >> >> Lars, >> >> Please put your cards on the table. What are your suggested changes? >> >> Fred >> >>> I am also more interested in processes than discussing special cases. >>> I >>> think that was also the meaning of Rui Correia's letter starting this >>> thread. >>> >>> To me there is obvious that there are flaws in the construction of the >>> Wiki-organization when it comes to mistreatment and mobbing of users. >>> I >>> have discussed this question both with the stewards and the ombudsman, >>> both tell me that they can't intervene in a Wiki, even if they >>> themselves >>> object to the behaviour of certain members of that Wiki. >>> >>> That means that there is no instance outside of the specific Wiki to >>> which a harassed and mobbed user can turn. That is I think an >>> structural >>> error that I believe you don't usually find in any other big >>> organization. >>> >>> I have also studied these pages where "dispute resolution" is handled. >>> They do not impress me much. I agree with Rui Correia, it is the same >>> people quarreling about the same things and the result is often nil. >>> >>> So I still think there need to be structural change to handle this >>> type >>> of problems. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Lars Gardenius >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> Von: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >>> An: Lars Gardenius <[email protected]> >>> CC: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]>; >>> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >>> Gesendet: 15:15 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 >>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from >>> itself >>> >>> >>> >>> I've worked extensively with dispute resolution on English Wikipedia >>> (I >>> have conducted surveys and so on). If you have specific trends I would >>> welcome seeing them (isolated cases where one side is unhappy with the >>> result is not necessarily a sign the process is flawed, so I am more >>> interested in overall trends but would welcome your opinion.) >>> >>> >>> Steve ZhangSent from my iPad >>> >>> On 05/09/2013, at 10:59 PM, Lars Gardenius <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Sorry, but I have seen several instances where it certainly doesn't >>> work. >>> Not in a way you would expect in a normal society anyhow. >>>> >>>>Regards, >>>>Lars Gardenius >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>________________________________ >>>> Von: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >>>>An: Lars Gardenius <[email protected]>; Wikimedia Mailing List >>>> <[email protected]> >>>>CC: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>; Wikimedia >>>> Mailing >>>> List <[email protected]> >>>>Gesendet: 14:22 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 >>>>Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from >>>> itself >>>> >>>> >>>>I wouldn't say dispute resolution has never worked, nor does it not >>>> work >>>> now. It could use improvement, but the same could be said about >>>> everything (and like most things, shortages of volunteers make things >>>> harder) >>>> >>>>Steve Zhang >>>>Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>>On 05/09/2013, at 6:18 PM, Lars Gardenius <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way. >>>>> >>>>> That "Wikipedia:Dispute resolution" mirrors a very naive approach in >>>>> a >>>>> worldwide organization. It has never worked before and it doesn't >>>>> work >>>>> now. >>>>> >>>>> To imagine that groups of people will not try and manoeuvre out >>>>> persons that they don't like is very naive. >>>>> That has not happened before in the history of mankind and the >>> Wikis are no exception. >>>>> >>>>> Today noone is accountable for what they do to other >>>>> Wiki-contributors, they are not even identifiable since they hide >>>>> behind nome de guerres. Stewards have no authority to protect users >>>>> from abuses and the same goes for the Ombudsman. (see also Rui >>>>> Correia's email) >>>>> >>>>> So if the Wikis want to be a safe place for children and old folks >>>>> alike, and that everybody shall be able to contribute on equal >>>>> conditions, a more realistic organization to protect the users must >>>>> be >>>>> put in place. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> Lars Gardenius >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> Von: Fred Bauder <[email protected]> >>>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> >>>>> Gesendet: 1:16 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 >>>>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from >>>>> itself >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It is addressed but by a rather complicated and demanding process. >>>>> See >>>>> Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Not really workable for new users who >>>>> bump >>>>> up against well-established users who have bad habits, or have >>>>> learned >>>>> that nasty behavior pays off in being able to control content. >>>>> >>>>> Fred >>>>> >>>>>> I think you are completely right and it is a big problem in the >>>>>> Wiki-world that is not being addressed by anyone in a leading >>>>>> position. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Lars Gardenius >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>> Von: Rui Correia <[email protected]> >>>>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> >>>>>> Gesendet: 23:08 Mittwoch, 4.September 2013 >>>>>> Betreff: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from >>>>>> itself >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Greetings to All >>>>>> >>>>>> Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not >>>>>> compared >>>>>> to >>>>>> people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a >>>>>> long >>>>>> list >>>>>> of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side. >>>>>> >>>>>> In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave >>>>>> the >>>>>> project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore >>>>>> having >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>> fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics. >>>>>> >>>>>> In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around >>>>>> topis >>>>>> is >>>>>> fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a >>>>>> higher >>>>>> process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of >>>>>> people >>>>>> previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the >>>>>> resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the >>>>>> 'outsider' >>>>>> that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets >>>>>> 'good >>>>>> advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, >>>>>> to >>>>>> temper >>>>>> his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is >>>>>> round >>>>>> at >>>>>> a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is >>>>>> making >>>>>> the >>>>>> WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a >>> cabal. >>>>>> >>>>>> And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email. >>>>>> >>>>>> I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that >>>>>> one >>>>>> encounters when you include something negative about certain big >>>>>> corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and >>>>>> everbody >>>>>> else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we >>>>>> know >>>>>> there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear >>>>>> you!". >>>>>> >>>>>> Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more >>>>>> importantantly >>>>>> - >>>>>> was >>>>>> anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are >>>>>> legions >>>>>> out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we >>>>>> know >>>>>> that >>>>>> they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here, >>>>>> http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles >>>>>> >>>>>> I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word >>>>>> "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go >>>>>> back >>>>>> to >>>>>> XP. >>>>>> For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to >>>>>> XP >>>>>> is >>>>>> an >>>>>> upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of >>>>>> offending >>>>>> the >>>>>> entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant - >>>>>> not >>>>>> the >>>>>> first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, >>>>>> but >>>>>> nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was >>>>>> immediately >>>>>> closed, >>> labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on >>>>>> that >>>>>> page, but my entry was closed within minutes. >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29 >>>>>> >>>>>> It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed >>>>>> elsewhere. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, >>>>>> I >>>>>> don't >>>>>> do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in >>>>>> eight >>>>>> languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a >>>>>> number >>>>>> of >>>>>> initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am >>> happy to see >>>>>> that >>>>>> things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy >>>>>> Wales >>>>>> in >>>>>> South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy >>>>>> with >>>>>> a >>>>>> novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincere regards to all, happy editing >>>>>> >>>>>> Rui Correia >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> _________________________ >>>>>> Rui Correia >>>>>> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant >>>>>> Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant >>>>>> >>>>>> Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186 >>>>>> Número de Telemóvel na Ãfrica do Sul +27 74 425 4186 >>>>>> _______________ >>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> Unsubscribe: >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> Unsubscribe: >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> Unsubscribe: >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> Unsubscribe: >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list >> [email protected] >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > [email protected] > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
