I am also more interested in processes than discussing special cases. I think that was also the meaning of Rui Correia's letter starting this thread.
To me there is obvious that there are flaws in the construction of the Wiki-organization when it comes to mistreatment and mobbing of users. I have discussed this question both with the stewards and the ombudsman, both tell me that they can't intervene in a Wiki, even if they themselves object to the behaviour of certain members of that Wiki. That means that there is no instance outside of the specific Wiki to which a harassed and mobbed user can turn. That is I think an structural error that I believe you don't usually find in any other big organization. I have also studied these pages where "dispute resolution" is handled. They do not impress me much. I agree with Rui Correia, it is the same people quarreling about the same things and the result is often nil. So I still think there need to be structural change to handle this type of problems. Regards, Lars Gardenius ________________________________ Von: "cro0...@gmail.com" <cro0...@gmail.com> An: Lars Gardenius <lars.garden...@yahoo.de> CC: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>; "fredb...@fairpoint.net" <fredb...@fairpoint.net> Gesendet: 15:15 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself I've worked extensively with dispute resolution on English Wikipedia (I have conducted surveys and so on). If you have specific trends I would welcome seeing them (isolated cases where one side is unhappy with the result is not necessarily a sign the process is flawed, so I am more interested in overall trends but would welcome your opinion.) Steve ZhangSent from my iPad On 05/09/2013, at 10:59 PM, Lars Gardenius <lars.garden...@yahoo.de> wrote: Sorry, but I have seen several instances where it certainly doesn't work. Not in a way you would expect in a normal society anyhow. > >Regards, >Lars Gardenius > > > > > >________________________________ > Von: "cro0...@gmail.com" <cro0...@gmail.com> >An: Lars Gardenius <lars.garden...@yahoo.de>; Wikimedia Mailing List ><wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> >CC: "fredb...@fairpoint.net" <fredb...@fairpoint.net>; Wikimedia Mailing List ><wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> >Gesendet: 14:22 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 >Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself > > >I wouldn't say dispute resolution has never worked, nor does it not work now. >It could use improvement, but the same could be said about everything (and >like most things, shortages of volunteers make things harder) > >Steve Zhang >Sent from my iPad > >On 05/09/2013, at 6:18 PM, Lars Gardenius <lars.garden...@yahoo.de> wrote: > >> No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way. >> >> That "Wikipedia:Dispute resolution" mirrors a very naive approach in a >> worldwide organization. It has never worked before and it doesn't work now. >> >> To imagine that groups of people will not try and manoeuvre out persons that >> they don't like is very naive. >> That has not happened before in the history of mankind and the Wikis are no exception. >> >> Today noone is accountable for what they do to other Wiki-contributors, they >> are not even identifiable since they hide behind nome de guerres. Stewards >> have no authority to protect users from abuses and the same goes for the >> Ombudsman. (see also Rui Correia's email) >> >> So if the Wikis want to be a safe place for children and old folks alike, >> and that everybody shall be able to contribute on equal conditions, a more >> realistic organization to protect the users must be put in place. >> >> >> Regards >> Lars Gardenius >> >> >> ________________________________ >> Von: Fred Bauder <fredb...@fairpoint.net> >> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> >> Gesendet: 1:16 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 >> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself >> >> >> It is addressed but by a rather complicated and demanding process. See >> Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Not really workable for new users who bump >> up against well-established users who have bad habits, or have learned >> that nasty behavior pays off in being able to control content. >> >> Fred >> >>> I think you are completely right and it is a big problem in the >>> Wiki-world that is not being addressed by anyone in a leading position. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Lars Gardenius >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> Von: Rui Correia <correia....@gmail.com> >>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> >>> Gesendet: 23:08 Mittwoch, 4.September 2013 >>> Betreff: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself >>> >>> >>> Greetings to All >>> >>> Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not compared >>> to >>> people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a long >>> list >>> of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side. >>> >>> In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave the >>> project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore having >>> to >>> fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics. >>> >>> In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis is >>> fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a higher >>> process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of people >>> previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the >>> resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the >>> 'outsider' >>> that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets 'good >>> advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to >>> temper >>> his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is round >>> at >>> a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is making >>> the >>> WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a cabal. >>> >>> And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email. >>> >>> I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that one >>> encounters when you include something negative about certain big >>> corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and everbody >>> else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we know >>> there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear you!". >>> >>> Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly - >>> was >>> anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are legions >>> out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we know >>> that >>> they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here, >>> http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles >>> >>> I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word >>> "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back to >>> XP. >>> For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP is >>> an >>> upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade. >>> >>> I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of offending >>> the >>> entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant - not >>> the >>> first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but >>> nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was immediately >>> closed, labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on >>> that >>> page, but my entry was closed within minutes. >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29 >>> >>> It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed elsewhere. >>> >>> So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, I >>> don't >>> do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in eight >>> languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a number >>> of >>> initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am happy to see >>> that >>> things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy Wales in >>> South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa. >>> >>> So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with a >>> novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy. >>> >>> Sincere regards to all, happy editing >>> >>> Rui Correia >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> _________________________ >>> Rui Correia >>> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant >>> Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant >>> >>> Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186 >>> Número de Telemóvel na Ãfrica do Sul +27 74 425 4186 >>> _______________ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list >>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list >>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
