Wanting to "keep the newbies away" is hardly a common reason for people's
opposition to Flow. Someone might've said such a thing, but to paint that
as the reason for opposition for even a significant minority is totally

You can, of course, say that all the other reasons given are irrational,
though I wouldn't agree. But dismissing them by setting up a (rather
ridiculous) straw man is not helpful.

On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 11:06 AM, Marc A. Pelletier <> wrote:

> On 09/06/2014 12:34 PM, Isarra Yos wrote:
> > if the designers do not even understand the basic principles behind a
> > wiki, how can what is developed possibly suit our needs?
> You're starting from the presumption that, for some unexplained reason,
> collaborative discussion benefits from being a wiki (as opposed to, you
> know, the actual content).
> Very many people, myself included, believe that a wiki page is an
> *atrocious* medium for discussion.  It obfuscates who is talking to whom
> under layers of markup, can make discussion flow (see what I did here?)
> impossible to divine unless you are an old hand, and is otherwise
> nearly-impossible for most newbies to partake in.
> Hell, I've been around for over ten years and on large volume
> discussions (you know, the ones we *want* lots of participation in),
> commenting is a pain at best and I /still/ end up having to occasionally
> have to peruse diffs just to figure out who said what in which order.
> I've yet to find a rational motivation for expressing desire for that
> horrid mess other than "it keeps the newbies away".  And yes, that
> rationale *has* been offered.  More than once.  In so many words.
> Sadly, there *are* people who get offended that the vast unwashed masses
> could start contributing to *their* project without having gone through
> a painful, demanding rite of passage.  Truth is, most people of the
> world don't have the time for that, or if they do, (perfectly
> reasonably) believe that you shouldn't have to pay to volunteer to help.
> -- Marc
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