That male librarian here. I think we need to encourage people to add more and conflicting data to Wikidata, and to cite their sources when they do so. Currently it's not particularly easy to cite your sources on Wikidata. So the end result is that it encourages people to view whatever single uncited bit of data appears there as the one true fact.
On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Ed Erhart <the.e...@gmail.com> wrote: > On the very specific point of knowledge and how it's not always possible to > boil it down to a single quantifiable value, I couldn't agree more. Thank > you, Andreas, for the detailed anecdote displaying that problem, and I'll > be happy to provide more if needed. > > Does Wikidata have a way of marking data entries as estimates, or at least > dates as circa (not just unknown)? > > --Ed > On Nov 28, 2015 1:24 PM, "Andreas Kolbe" <jayen...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Gerard, >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> When you compare the quality of Wikipedias with what en.wp used to be you >> > are comparing apples and oranges. The Myanmar Wikipedia is better >> informed >> > on Myanmar than en.wp etc. >> > >> >> >> Is it? The entire Burmese Wikipedia contains a mere 31,646 content pages at >> the time of writing, covering (or trying to cover) all countries of the >> world, and all aspects of human knowledge.[1] >> >> The English Wikipedia's WikiProject Myanmar, meanwhile, has 6,713 pages >> within its purview.[2] I dare say that's more articles on Myanmar than the >> Burmese Wikipedia contains. As an indication, the English Wikipedia's >> article on Myanmar is more than twice as long as the one in the Burmese >> Wikipedia. >> >> Moreover, according to Freedom House[3], the internet in Myanmar is not >> free: >> >> "The government detained and charged internet users for online activities >> [...] Government officials pressured social media users not to distribute >> or share content that offends the military, or disturbs the functions of >> government." >> >> >> >> > When you qualify a Wikipedia as fascist, it does not follow that the data >> > is suspect. Certainly when data in a source that you so easily dismiss is >> > typically the same, there is not much meaning in what you say from a >> > Wikidata point of view. >> > >> >> >> Data are always generated within a social context, and data generated by >> political extremists or people living under oppressive regimes are suspect >> whenever they have political implications. (Looking at the descriptions of >> Burmese politics, my feeling is the Burmese Wikipedia is not under >> significant government control, but largely written by ex-pats. However, >> the situation is quite different in some other Wikipedias serving countries >> labouring under similar regimes.) >> >> >> >> > PS What does your librarian think when she knows >> >> >> >> It was a he, but I'll leave him to join in himself if he chooses to. >> >> >> I happen to work on Dukes of Friuli. Compare the data from Wikidata and the >> > information by Reasonator based on the same item for one of them. >> > >> > https://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?&q=2471519 >> > https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q2471519 >> > >> >> >> Let's look at this example. Reasonator says of Grasulf II of Friulim, "He >> died in 653". There is no source. Wikidata says he died in 653, and the >> indicated source is the Italian Wikipedia. >> >> However, when you look at the (very brief) Italian Wikipedia article[4], >> you will find that the year 653 is given with a question mark. The English >> Wikipedia, in contrast, states, in its similarly brief article[5], >> >> "Nothing more is known about Grasulf and the date of his death is >> uncertain." >> >> Do you now see the problem about nuance? Reasonator and Wikidata >> confidently proclaim as uncontested fact something that in fact is rather >> uncertain. >> >> The sole source cited by both the English and the Italian Wikipedia is the >> Historia Langobardorum, available in Wikisource.[6] My Latin is a bit >> rusty, but while the Historia mentions that Ago succeeded Grasulf upon the >> latter's death, it says nothing specific about when that was. The >> Historia's time indications are in general very vague, usually limited to >> the phrase "Circa haec tempora", meaning "about this time". So it is in >> this case. >> >> For reference, the Google Knowledge Graph states equally confidently that >> Grasulf II of Friuli died in 651AD. This may be based on the English >> Wikipedia's unsourced claim (in the template at the bottom of the English >> Wikipedia article) that his reign ended c. 651, or on some other source >> like Freebase. >> >> The other Wikipedias that have articles on Grasulf II provide the following >> death dates >> >> Catalan: 651 >> Galician: 653 >> Lithuanian: 653 >> Polish: 651 >> Romanian: Unknown >> Russian: 653 >> Ukrainian: 651 >> >> As for published sources, I can offer Ersch's Allgemeine Encyclopädie >> (1849), which states on page 209 that Grasulf II died in 651.[7] >> >> The extreme vagueness of the available dates is pointed out by Thomas >> Hodgkin in Vol. 7 of "Italy and Her Invaders" (1895). Hodgkin puts the end >> of Grasulf's reign at 645, "as a mere random guess", and adds that "De >> Rubeis, following Sigonius", puts the accession of Ago in 661.[8] >> >> There may well be better and more recent sources beyond my reach, but >> having these published dates in Wikidata, with the source references, would >> actually make some sense. Unsourced data, not so much. >> >> Answers are comfortable, but they are not knowledge when they are >> unverifiable and/or wrong. >> >> >> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias#10_000.2B_articles >> [2] >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Myanmar_(Burma)/Assessment >> >> [3] https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-net/2015/myanmar >> [4] >> >> https://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grasulfo_II_del_Friuli&oldid=76641444 >> [5] >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grasulf_II_of_Friuli&oldid=633223880 >> [6] https://la.wikisource.org/wiki/Historia_Langobardorum/Liber_IV >> [7] >> >> https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FzxYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA209&dq=grasulf+friuli+651%7C653&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNh5Tz0rPJAhUIChoKHV6lDTYQ6AEILzAC#v=onepage&q=grasulf%20friuli%20651%7C653&f=false >> [8] >> >> https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8ToOAwAAQBAJ&dq=grasulf+friuli+651%7C653&q=Grasulf+%22mere+random+guess%22#v=snippet&q=Grasulf%20%22mere%20random%20guess%22&f=false >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
