Dear Wikimedia-l subscribers, Throughout this discussion several requests have been made regarding banning of users from the list.
Since we do not have an official banning policy approved by the community, we have drafted our thoughts on the matter, as well as a proposed procedure for your consideration. We are adding it as a 5th point in our “Request for Comments” in our journey towards a healthier community. You are welcome to support it, oppose it, explicitly ask that it be left to the admins’ decision (which is arguably status quo), or propose an entirely new option that we haven’t thought about. Best, The Wikimedia-l admin team. ------------------------------ The list is a tool for the community and it exists to serve the community. The ability to express dissenting opinions and to criticize is important in any movement, and is particularly cherished in our movement, which empowers individuals to an uncommon degree. But dissenting opinions should not mean a carte blanche to express it in offensive, threatening, or menacing ways. And critics have no immunity from criticism. Individuals’ behavior can reduce the usefulness of the list, either intentionally (trolling) or unintentionally. Our proposals seek to minimize individuals’ ability to reduce the usefulness of the list, without targeting specific individuals. It is important to note that attempts to limit or ban individuals who express criticism *and* misbehave are sometimes interpreted as “silencing of criticism” and as an abuse of power. We cannot avoid these interpretations. Our duty as admins is to ensure that if a subscriber is banned, it would not be criticism alone that caused the ban; that the request to ban is not made by just one or few individuals, but rather a decision of the list community at large; and that the community decides based on clear criteria. Some of the opposition votes on the list, Meta & Facebook thus far suggested that removing individuals would work better than adding rules. In general, and on many Wikipedias, it is considered unacceptable to approach a contributor's boss to complain about something that contributor said on-wiki. More than one member alluded to this norm in calling for a ban of a member based on his complaining about a WMF employee who is active on the list. However, it seems to us that specifically for Foundation (or chapters) employees, whose day jobs are in service of this community, it should be permissible to escalate a concern about an employee's conduct to their manager. This should of course be a last resort and executed with caution and discretion. No doubt, some people may abuse this and file fake or trolling complaints. It should be up to the managers at WMF to apply their judgment (and seek guidance from their own managers, if necessary) in reviewing such complaints. We recognize that the risk of being complained about may deter some employees from engaging on the list, and that would be unfortunate. However, it would be absurd to make criticism of employee conduct the one topic the community is not allowed to discuss or complain about. Working for pay for this movement entails being open to community scrutiny and accepting the fact one may be held accountable by one's manager based on input from the community. Foundation staff also have the benefit of a reporting structure and a Human Resources department, both of which can support them in the face of the occasional unjustified or trolling complaint. It is up to all of us to express criticism fairly and calmly, to speak up for and not only against, and to prefer discussion to attack. It is possible that the community would find an individual so disruptive and so draining, that the community moves to ban that individual. The list admins would execute such a ban if and when there is clear evidence of significant community support for such a move. An individual request to ban a subscriber of the list will not constitute such evidence. But if the community of this mailing list so chooses, it can organize a demonstration of its wishes and the list admins would act on it. Finally, we would like to observe that the negative atmosphere on the list is greatly amplified by the relative shortage of constructive conversation. This is no doubt the result of years of frustration, but it is also a vicious cycle. Borrowing from Gandhi, we call upon everyone reading this with an interest in reviving the list as a useful discussion space to “be the conversation you would like to see in the list”. A flourishing of constructive, collegial conversation would do much to reduce the relative significance of problematic or unpleasant contributors. Sincerely, The Wikimedia-l admin team. On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Shani Evenstein <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear all, > > I should have mentioned that we are working on a formal response regarding > the request to ban subscribers from the list.This is an issue that has been > raised during this discussion and we are carefully considering our thoughts > on the matter, as we did for the 4 points that we already requested > comments on. We are close to reaching a consensus and will hopefully be > able to release it soon, but we are in different time zones, so please bear > with us. Our response will sum up our view regarding the points raised in > the list re banning, as well as suggest a proper procedure. > > We thank you all for your patience, and again, urge you to take a step > back, not focus on individual cases and respond constructively to the 4 > points that were raised in John's original mail. > > Shani. > > On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 7:12 PM, Robert Fernandez <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> I am grateful that the moderators have taken some action, but I am >> disappointed that contacting a person's employer is not yet seen as an >> uncrossable line here. >> >> Out of respect to your call for civility I will refrain from directly >> responding to the person in question despite his allegations against me. >> It is a mistake to frame this as a free speech issue. It is of course in >> the interests of a person engaging in bullying and harassing behavior to >> claim people are trying to suppress their powerful truths, but there is no >> reason we have to accept this duplicitous framing. The content of the >> message is immaterial, the behavior is the issue. Some people may see >> this >> as a grey area given that it was a Foundation employee, but I see it as a >> slippery slope. Seddon's job is almost certainly safe, but this might not >> be the case for the next victim. Will the poster in question decide that >> I >> am "bullying and harassing" him and attempt to contact my employer next? >> >> Most of my fellow board members of my chapter are the employees of US >> government agencies or connected to the Foundation as an employee or a >> grant recipient. Given the unusual political climate in the US I worry >> that the former group are particularly vulnerable to harassment targeting >> their employment. (Media outlets favored by the current US presidential >> administration have targeted individual Wikimedia editors, including >> myself, in the past.) If participants on this list are allowed to engage >> in this sort of harassment without real consequence, I will advise that my >> chapter and its board members and volunteers no longer participate on this >> list due to the risk to their livelihoods. >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 5:45 AM, Shani Evenstein <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> > Dear Wikimedia-l, >> > >> > Rogol has been placed under moderation, but at this point no decision >> has >> > been made to ban him from the list. As long as his messages are >> reasonable, >> > respectful and on point, his messages will go through. We agreed that >> it is >> > important to allow a diversity of voices to be heard, including those of >> > "frequent flyers" in the list, especially as we work collaboratively on >> > next steps towards a healthier community atmosphere. >> > >> > In addition, we are asking everyone to refrain from focusing on specific >> > individuals posting to the list, put any personal issues aside and stay >> on >> > problem. We want as many people as possible to productively and >> objectively >> > participate in the discussion, till we draft clearer guidelines for >> posting >> > to the list. We are aware that these guidelines will not automagically >> fix >> > all of our issues as a global community, but we believe they will help >> > reduce the noise substantially. Do keep on debating. We are trying to >> > intervene as little as possible at this point and let the debate run its >> > course. >> > >> > Best, >> > Shani Evenstein, on behalf of the Wikimedia-l Admins. >> > >> > On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 8:52 PM, James Salsman <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> >> Why are we having this RFC prior to the survey which was discussed at >> >> length less than a year ago? >> >> >> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:James_Salsman#Peri >> >> odic_survey_prototype >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Robert Fernandez >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Since Rogol has followed through on his threat he should be banned >> from >> >> the >> >> > list, or we should have a public statement from the moderators >> regarding >> >> > why they will not do so. >> >> > >> >> > I can't imagine many actions that would have a more chilling effect >> on >> >> > participation here than one of this list's most frequent posters >> >> contacting >> >> > your employer because he disagrees with what you have to say. >> >> > >> >> > On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 7:57 AM, Joseph Seddon < >> [email protected]> >> >> > wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> Since you kindly emailed my line manage Rogol, I wanted to confirm >> >> that my >> >> >> choice of words were very carefully chosen. >> >> >> >> >> >> And I stand by them. >> >> >> >> >> >> Seddon >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 8:25 PM, Rogol Domedonfors < >> >> [email protected]> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> > Joseph >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I chose my wording quite carefully, and suggest that you do so >> too. >> >> I >> >> >> said >> >> >> > that the proposal "involves", not "is equal to" real-life identity >> >> To >> >> >> the >> >> >> > extent that real-life identities are involved, it is reasonable to >> >> ask >> >> >> how >> >> >> > that personal information is going to be handled. For some >> reason, >> >> you >> >> >> > seem keen to derail that part of the discussion by elevating a >> >> quibble >> >> >> over >> >> >> > your hasty misunderstanding of my wording into an accusation, >> which I >> >> >> > reject, of generalised misconduct. If you have some comment to >> make >> >> >> about >> >> >> > the handling of personal information, please do so. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > May I suggest that you withdraw your original posting, apologise >> to >> >> the >> >> >> > membership of this list for the unconstructive nature of your >> >> posting, >> >> >> and >> >> >> > to me for its aggressive, insulting and incorrect content. >> >> >> Alternatively, >> >> >> > perhaps you would prefer me to ask your line manager whether this >> is >> >> the >> >> >> > sort of behaviour that she expects you to exhibit in a public >> forum. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Reginald >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 8:07 PM, Joseph Seddon < >> >> [email protected]> >> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > Real identity does not equal real-life identity. You can mask >> your >> >> >> > > pseudonymous identity and pose as a third party similarly >> >> pseudonymous >> >> >> > > individual. >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet) >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > Seddon >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >> >> >> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >> >> >> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l >> >> >> > > New messages to: [email protected] >> >> >> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma >> >> ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> >> >> > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsu >> >> bscribe> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >> >> >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >> >> >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l >> >> >> > New messages to: [email protected] >> >> >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma >> >> ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> >> >> > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsu >> bscribe> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> Seddon >> >> >> >> >> >> *Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)* >> >> >> *Wikimedia Foundation* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >> >> >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >> >> >> wiki/Wikimedia-l >> >> >> New messages to: [email protected] >> >> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma >> ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> >> >> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsu >> bscribe> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik >> >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik >> >> i/Wikimedia-l >> >> > New messages to: [email protected] >> >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma >> ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> >> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik >> >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik >> >> i/Wikimedia-l >> >> New messages to: [email protected] >> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> >> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >> >> >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik >> i/Wikimedia-l >> New messages to: [email protected] >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >> > > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
