There are companies that make it their business to sell market data.  If it 
was not accurate they would not still be in business.
Heck, I can probably sample 80% of all WISPs in the US in one week with two 
people and two phones.  WISPS are not hesitant to talk about their 
technology and you can look at websites and guess at coverage maps and 
sizes.  Moreover, I get calls on a regular basis my market research firms 
wanting to know details.  I share.  They give an NDA, I give data.  You can 
go by FCC data too (assuming everyone is reporting like they are supposed to 
do).

I have a large rolodex for AF that would be a good basis for a sample if I 
decided to do one.  I think I can independently verify the market data if 
there was some reason for me to do so.

But when Mot makes semi-public pronouncements of having over 50% of the 
market in this sarbanes-oxley environment, you can laugh all you want but to 
dismiss is folly.

BTW, Canopy is large enough to actually move the stock price of Mot.  Canopy 
revenue is supporting many of the folks in the handset division.
You can wish they will sell or scrap all you want, but I doubt you will get 
your wish this xmas.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


> Sorry but this comment makes me laugh that you can throw out a number like 
> this when the "wise" people that do statistics can't even come to a true 
> conclusion how many wisps and other unlicensed operators there are out 
> there. To state these numbers as well with as many privately owned 
> manufacturers and distributors there are out there selling unlicensed 
> equipment I personally wouldn't dare throw out numbers like that so 
> casually like it was THE truth.
>
> Sure Canopy got a great product and have a big market space. But in the 
> big scope on the Moto radar Canopy is a very small market and Moto got 
> their status downgraded to junk by S&P this week. If they really start 
> hurting I do not doubt seeing them hesitate for 2second to scrap or sell 
> their Canopy line.
> /Eje
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:25:37
> To: WISPA General List<wireless@wispa.org>
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>
>
> Digis was 100% Canopy.  I think they had about 15,000 at the time of the
> purchase.
> We have 5000+ all Canopy.
> Mot has more than 50% of the US market.  So the other 50% is made up of
> Trango, Tranzeo, MT etc etc etc.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>
>
>> That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are at
>> your not that far off...
>>
>> Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they
>> bought...
>> Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part of
>> them.  Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband.  All Canopy shops (granted Mesa had
>> some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's
>> Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's
>> part
>> of the network).
>>
>> Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you?
>>
>> Daniel White
>> 3-dB Networks
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>> Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3
>>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>>
>>> JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>>
>>>
>>> > Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.
>>> >
>>> > But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics
>>> > that
>>> > back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large
>>> > provider
>>> > market.
>>> >
>>> > What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest 
>>> > Urban
>>> > WISPs. They use Aperto.
>>> > What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one 
>>> > two
>>> > occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot
>>> > of
>>> > Alvarion later on.
>>> > What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
>>> > Trango
>>> > at one point.
>>> > What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
>>> > What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he
>>> was
>>> > mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
>>> > What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
>>> > primarilly a Canopy shop.
>>> >
>>> > Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve
>>> in
>>> > compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and
>>> > beyond.
>>> > But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.
>>> >
>>> > You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, 
>>> > most
>>> > all
>>> > of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of 
>>> > the
>>> > largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs
>>> > to
>>> > now
>>> > buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting
>>> > that
>>> > Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.
>>> >
>>> > I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a 
>>> > leap
>>> > frog
>>> > game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
>>> > because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific
>>> > application
>>> > on
>>> > this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well
>>> > may
>>> > bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are
>>> new
>>> > products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650
>>> > markets.
>>> >
>>> > And the comment "are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.", that's 
>>> > a
>>> > croc.  If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years
>>> > later,
>>> > my
>>> > Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.
>>> >
>>> > I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had
>>> > the
>>> > reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could
>>> > afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for
>>> > "small
>>> > operators."  To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering
>>> > leader,
>>> > and
>>> > favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down
>>> > the
>>> > path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps
>>> > capacities,
>>> > therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into
>>> > winning
>>> > business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and
>>> > doesn't
>>> > want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left
>>> that
>>> > can do it at near the same price point.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Tom DeReggi
>>> > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>> > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> > To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>> > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:16 AM
>>> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>I guess we need to define large... :-)
>>> >>
>>> >> You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over 
>>> >> say
>>> >> 1000
>>> >> customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in 
>>> >> say
>>> >> 2006
>>> >> on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and
>>> >> now
>>> >> they
>>> >> are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.
>>> >>
>>> >> I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark.  I
>>> for
>>> >> one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and 
>>> >> they
>>> >> all
>>> >> use Canopy...
>>> >>
>>> >> Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very
>>> >> wrong
>>> >> :-)  I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I
>>> >> apologize!)
>>> >>
>>> >> Daniel White
>>> >> 3-dB Networks
>>> >>
>>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>>> >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> On
>>> >>> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
>>> >>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM
>>> >>> To: WISPA General List
>>> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>> >>>
>>> >>> > the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may
>>> use
>>> >>> Canopy..  But that comment is in no way true.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango,
>>> >>> Alvarion,
>>> >>> StarOS, etc.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Tom DeReggi
>>> >>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>> >>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >>> From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> >>> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>> >>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM
>>> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> > Steve,
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our
>>> >>> > company
>>> >>> we
>>> >>> > are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of
>>> our
>>> >>> > success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP.  He wrote an
>>> article
>>> >>> here
>>> >>> > about leasing that might change your mind.
>>> http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > Basically look at it this way.  If you lease your equipment, it
>>> allows
>>> >>> you
>>> >>> > to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase
>>> your
>>> >>> > revenue.  You end up paying more in the long run because of the
>>> >>> interest,
>>> >>> > but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your
>>> >>> vendor
>>> >>> > instead of individual or 5 packs.  Todd probably explains it 
>>> >>> > better
>>> in
>>> >>> the
>>> >>> > article.
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that 
>>> >>> > another
>>> >>> > WISP
>>> >>> > can
>>> >>> > replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is
>>> equipment
>>> >>> > related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an
>>> >>> 802.11a/b/g
>>> >>> > solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers 
>>> >>> > were
>>> on
>>> >>> > KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really 
>>> >>> > fast.
>>> >>> > We
>>> >>> > had
>>> >>> > many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been
>>> successful
>>> >>> > without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an 
>>> >>> > AP.
>>> >>> > Our
>>> >>> > WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we
>>> hit
>>> >>> the
>>> >>> > limitations of the KarlNet system.  My experiences with a Tranzeo
>>> >>> network
>>> >>> > in
>>> >>> > 2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that
>>> >>> > much
>>> >>> (its
>>> >>> > all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to
>>> it).
>>> >>> So
>>> >>> > while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and
>>> >>> > start
>>> >>> > over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a
>>> reason.
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't
>>> >>> > worth
>>> >>> > much anymore)
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > Daniel White
>>> >>> > 3-dB Networks
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >>> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless-
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> >>> >> On
>>> >>> >> Behalf Of Steve Barnes
>>> >>> >> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM
>>> >>> >> To: WISPA General List
>>> >>> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it 
>>> >>> >> so
>>> >>> >> that
>>> >>> >> the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.
>>> You
>>> >>> >> still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the
>>> >>> >> ROI
>>> >>> >> takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease
>>> >>> >> Co.
>>> >>> >> Can you help me with that one.
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> Steve
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless-
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> >>> >> On
>>> >>> >> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>>> >>> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
>>> >>> >> To: WISPA General List
>>> >>> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the
>>> >>> install
>>> >>> >> fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside
>>> >>> >> down"
>>> >>> >> on
>>> >>> >> every new customer.
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> Travis
>>> >>> >> Microserv
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000
>>> >>> >> subscribers
>>> >>> >> things will be a bit better.
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >>> >> From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> >>> >> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>> >>> >> <mailto:wireless@wispa.org>
>>> >>> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
>>> >>> >> Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth
>>> >>> >> different
>>> >>> >> WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
>>> >>> >> equipment
>>> >>> >> that is so often discussed on this list.
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch
>>> >>> >> each
>>> >>> >> penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to
>>> >>> >> service the
>>> >>> >> clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other
>>> >>> >> that
>>> >>> >> what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8
>>> >>> >> towers with
>>> >>> >> 320 clients.
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a
>>> >>> >> $59.99 Pro
>>> >>> >> Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn
>>> >>> >> off the
>>> >>> >> speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M
>>> >>> >> on any
>>> >>> >> of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS
>>> >>> >> Full
>>> >>> >> Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost
>>> >>> >> of with
>>> >>> >> another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to
>>> >>> >> achieve
>>> >>> >> 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.
>>> >>> >> What do
>>> >>> >> you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have
>>> >>> >> started you
>>> >>> >> service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have
>>> >>> >> and I
>>> >>> >> know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in
>>> >>> >> the same
>>> >>> >> boat.
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND
>>> >>> >> definition
>>> >>> >> without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is
>>> >>> >> everyone
>>> >>> >> charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing
>>> >>> >> is not
>>> >>> >> readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.
>>> >>> >> No
>>> >>> >> Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
>>> >>> >> Verizon.
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> Steve Barnes
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> RC-WiFi.com
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------
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