I'd agree, except with the Trango Apex part... I don't think I need to rehash my opinion there :-)
Daniel White 3-dB Networks > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Tom DeReggi > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:29 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds > > I also think, recognizing the past accurately, is not the same thing as > predicting the future. > > The future holds some very exciting possibilities. > > The value proposition of Canopy 430 series last mile combined with Trango > Apex distribution and NLOS TVWS where applicable, is a very exciting value > proposition to take WISPs to the next level. > > Tom DeReggi > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:46 PM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds > > > > Comments inline... > > > > Daniel White > > 3-dB Networks > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > >> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi > >> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:17 PM > >> To: WISPA General List > >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds > >> > >> Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. > >> > >> But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics > that > >> back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large > provider > >> market. > >> > >> What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban > >> WISPs. They use Aperto. > >> What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two > >> occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot > of > >> Alvarion later on. > >> What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of > >> Trango > >> at one point. > >> What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. > >> What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he > was > >> mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. > >> What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT > >> primarilly a Canopy shop. > >> > > > > With the exception of Matt Larsens operation (although I knew his last > one > > much better :-), I really have no extensive knowledge of any of these > > networks, so I really can't argue about them. What I can point out > > though, > > is I can think of that many Canopy WISP's that are that large. So while > > Canopy might not dominate the market, it very well could (underline > > underline italics) have the largest market share. Obviously I have no > > data > > to back that up, its my personal observation from my perch out here in > > Colorado... > > > >> Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve > in > >> compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and > beyond. > >> But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. > >> > > > > I don't think I meant to come off as they owned the market, but they are > a > > big player. I don't even know what would happen if we added in the > > international market... > > > >> You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most > >> all > >> of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the > >> largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs > to > >> now > >> buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting > that > >> Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. > > > > Can't argue with that. Earthlink really screwed up that part of the > > market... although I would say the gear is still at a reasonable price > all > > things considered. > > > >> I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap > >> frog > >> game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, > >> because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific > application > >> on > >> this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well > may > >> bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are > new > >> products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 > markets. > >> > > No argument here from me. We actually resell Aperto 3.65 because we see > > how > > strong of a play they have there where Motorola has no presence. But > > AKAIK > > there has been no 5,000 sub 3.65 deployments (heck I would doubt there > has > > even been any 1,000 sub deployments yet) so its hard to say where the > band > > will end up. Motorola will have a strong position in the TVWS spectrum > > (which I personally believe could redefine the WISP industry), and > > Motorola > > does dominate the 2.5GHz WiMax band (at least from the last report on I > > saw > > on Broadband reports). > > > >> And the comment "are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.", that's a > >> croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years > later, > >> my > >> Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed. > >> > > That wasn't my argument. The WISP in question is now owned by JAB, who > > has > > standardized on Canopy. They also deployed a lot of 5.2GHz, which is > now > > as > > far as I know no longer available. I think the decision was made for > them > > either way... it probably wasn't a choice. But the fact remains, once > > they > > switch to Canopy I don't think there will be one larger WISP in Colorado > > who > > does not have Canopy in their network. > > > >> I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had > the > >> reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could > >> afford the best. > > > > Alvarion has that reputation for sure. I have seen very little of their > > gear deployed though (admittingly I wasn't in the industry during the > > Breezemax days...) > > > >> Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for > >> "small > >> operators." To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering > leader, > > > > I'd argue that point all day long... Trango/Canopy pricing is about dead > > even every time I have seen a quote on Trango... and I don't think they > > have > > been ahead of the Canopy product line in years... your next statement > > backs > > that up. > > > >> and > >> favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down > the > >> path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps > >> capacities, > >> therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into > >> winning > >> business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and > >> doesn't > >> want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left > >> that > >> can do it at near the same price point. > > > > Actually in some ways Aperto gear can end up being cheaper at this point > > than Canopy at 21Mbps... but I hope a wide adoption of TVWS at that > level > > will change the game. The 430 series gear is going to be even more > > interesting... delivering 42Mbps... OEM platforms and 3.65 equipment is > > going to have a hard time competing with that... > >> > >> > >> Tom DeReggi > >> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > >> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> > >> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:16 AM > >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds > >> > >> > >> >I guess we need to define large... :-) > >> > > >> > You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over > say > >> > 1000 > >> > customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in > say > >> > 2006 > >> > on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and > now > >> > they > >> > are swapping out their Trango gear anyways. > >> > > >> > I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark. I > >> for > >> > one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and > they > >> all > >> > use Canopy... > >> > > >> > Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very > >> wrong > >> > :-) I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I > >> apologize!) > >> > > >> > Daniel White > >> > 3-dB Networks > >> > > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> On > >> >> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi > >> >> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM > >> >> To: WISPA General List > >> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds > >> >> > >> >> > the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason > >> >> > >> >> Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may > >> >> use > >> >> Canopy.. But that comment is in no way true. > >> >> > >> >> I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, > Alvarion, > >> >> StarOS, etc. > >> >> > >> >> Tom DeReggi > >> >> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > >> >> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> > >> >> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM > >> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Steve, > >> >> > > >> >> > I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our > >> company > >> >> we > >> >> > are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of > >> our > >> >> > success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP. He wrote an > >> >> > article > >> >> here > >> >> > about leasing that might change your mind. > >> >> > http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx > >> >> > > >> >> > Basically look at it this way. If you lease your equipment, it > >> allows > >> >> you > >> >> > to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase > >> >> > your > >> >> > revenue. You end up paying more in the long run because of the > >> >> interest, > >> >> > but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your > >> >> vendor > >> >> > instead of individual or 5 packs. Todd probably explains it > better > >> in > >> >> the > >> >> > article. > >> >> > > >> >> > Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that > another > >> >> > WISP > >> >> > can > >> >> > replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is > >> >> > equipment > >> >> > related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an > >> >> 802.11a/b/g > >> >> > solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers > were > >> on > >> >> > KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really > fast. > >> We > >> >> > had > >> >> > many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been > >> successful > >> >> > without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an > AP. > >> >> > Our > >> >> > WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we > >> >> > hit > >> >> the > >> >> > limitations of the KarlNet system. My experiences with a Tranzeo > >> >> network > >> >> > in > >> >> > 2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that > much > >> >> (its > >> >> > all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to > >> it). > >> >> So > >> >> > while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and > >> >> > start > >> >> > over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a > >> >> > reason. > >> >> > > >> >> > My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't > >> >> > worth > >> >> > much anymore) > >> >> > > >> >> > Daniel White > >> >> > 3-dB Networks > >> >> > > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> >> On > >> >> >> Behalf Of Steve Barnes > >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM > >> >> >> To: WISPA General List > >> >> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it > so > >> >> >> that > >> >> >> the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install. > >> >> >> You > >> >> >> still have to pay for it. It may make cash flow easier but the > ROI > >> >> >> takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease > Co. > >> >> >> Can you help me with that one. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Steve > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> >> On > >> >> >> Behalf Of Travis Johnson > >> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM > >> >> >> To: WISPA General List > >> >> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the > >> >> install > >> >> >> fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside > down" > >> on > >> >> >> every new customer. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Travis > >> >> >> Microserv > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 > >> >> >> subscribers > >> >> >> things will be a bit better. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> >> From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >> >> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> > >> >> >> <mailto:wireless@wispa.org> > >> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM > >> >> >> Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth > >> >> >> different > >> >> >> WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended > >> >> >> equipment > >> >> >> that is so often discussed on this list. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch > >> >> >> each > >> >> >> penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to > >> >> >> service the > >> >> >> clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other > >> >> >> that > >> >> >> what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 > >> >> >> towers with > >> >> >> 320 clients. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a > >> >> >> $59.99 Pro > >> >> >> Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn > >> >> >> off the > >> >> >> speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M > >> >> >> on any > >> >> >> of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS > >> >> >> Full > >> >> >> Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost > >> >> >> of with > >> >> >> another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to > >> >> >> achieve > >> >> >> 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. > >> >> >> What do > >> >> >> you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have > >> >> >> started you > >> >> >> service". I was providing a solution. So this is what I have > >> >> >> and I > >> >> >> know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in > >> >> >> the same > >> >> >> boat. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND > >> >> >> definition > >> >> >> without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is > >> >> >> everyone > >> >> >> charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing > >> >> >> is not > >> >> >> readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. > >> >> >> No > >> >> >> Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge > >> >> >> Verizon. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Steve Barnes > >> >> >> > >> >> >> RC-WiFi.com > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > >> --- > >> >> - > >> >> >> -------- > >> >> >> WISPA Wants You! 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