Affirmative !
Let the software do its job and give me**/the most correct information/.
My job is doing the right decison regarding to that information
/including the environment/,
what XCSoar definitely isn't able to do.
I'd never leave the choice of my outlanding field to a 12 year old PDA
neither an up2date supercomputer.. what software ever.
Maybe if XCSoar could land my glider on a 150m strip covered with high
grass, crosswind,
trees in the environment and knows, that it can be can hurt - but the
system has to demonstrate that ;-)
I'm owning eyes .. and ears ...the system doesn't
Claus
Am 15.01.2013 20:59, schrieb Ronald Niederhagen:
I agree with Ramy: keep it as is. I want to make my own decisions,
particularly when it comes to critical things like alternates. I
wouldn't trust an "intelligent" algorithm to make the right decision for
me. How can the system know that I prefer one out landing field over
another?
XCSoar is a source of (incomplete) information, not a decision maker.
Definitely!
Ronald
Am 15.01.2013 18:39, schrieb Ramy Yanetz:
I agree with Dan. I am also finding the trail (make sure to change it to
full) very useful to find previous thermals.
For me the most benefit (and probably easiest to implement) is to keep
everything the same and just allow the pilot to select the alternate
instead of auto select. I found the auto select to be rather problematic
since often the closest landable waypoint may be an emergency field you
don't want to normally consider.
However I also understand that others may want additional functionality,
so whatever the decision is, *please* do not change or impact existing
functionality. Please remember that majority of users, at least in the
US, don't fly tasks. Many of them don't subscribe to any forum, barely
read the manual and use XCSoar as configured out of the box.
Thanks,
Ramy
On Jan 15, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Dan Marotta <dcmaro...@earthlink.net
<mailto:dcmaro...@earthlink.net>> wrote:
All of this is very interesting to a retired systems engineer, but,
why do you need a separate NAV mode to find the last thermal? Simply
turn on trails (full, long, or short) and it's trivial to fly back to
the last thermal. I also find trails to be very useful in wave flying.
On 1/15/2013 5:14 AM, Henrik Bieler wrote:
I thought a lot about naming the modes. The reason I came up with
TASK NAV1 and NAV2 is that is imo the most flexible and still easy to
understand.
Creating seperate screens for each mode would be a lot overhead I
think and would run against our goal to monitor different
Navigation-Targets at the same time.
Let me give you a few use cases as Horst suggested:
1) Non XC-Pilot, new to XCS(eg. in a club glider), flying around the
home field:
Set the home-field on NAV1 and make this mode active. (Just hit
Goto, and you are done)
- no need to understand or fiddle with tasks
- if you need an alternate choose it from the map or Alternates
dialog. Hit Goto (This will Set this point on NAV1)
2) Advanced non-XC Pilot
Set home field on NAV1 active, Set Auto Alternates Mode on NAV2,
Configure an additional Infobox to show Heading and ArrAlt for NAV2
- no need to use task
- Main navigation always to home field
- you can see the NAV Data for the Suggested Alternate in the
additional Infobox
- if you want to go to your alternate just switch Navigation Mode
to NAV2 (one tap on the "1" in the screen corner)
- if you found a thermal just cycle throug the Navigation Modes
back to NAV1 (two taps)
- instead of an Alternate you could also use NAV2 to set the
LastThermal Marker etc...
3) XC-Pilot on Task
Set Task in Task Editor (will be available through TASK), Set one
or even two additional Infoboxes showing NAV-Data of NAV1 (and NAV2)
- Task is always maximum 2 taps away (cycle throung NAV-Modes)
- Set on NAV1 maybe an Alternate / Auto Alternate etc. You can
monitar NAV-Data in the additional Info box(es). If you need to go
there just switch Navigation Mode to NAV1
- Set on NAV2 maybe a marker, last thermal, or in the future maybe
the Auto-Updated position of your Teammate from Skylines....*dreaming*
- You have some basic Info always available through the additional
Info box (eg. distance to teammate), just cycle Navigation mode to
NAV2 and you are actually going there. Just cycle back to TASK
anytime... :-)
I like it because you could keep Navigating easy for xcs beginners,
you have all flexibiliy you want for experts and it is easier to
implement future features.
Cheers Henrik
Am 15.01.2013 12:07, schrieb Tobias Bieniek:
I think that sounds pretty good already. Maybe instead of two NAV
modes we would have a NAV mode and an ALT mode. The ALT mode could use
the automatic alternate selection, while the NAV mode uses the GoTo
target.
Typing it like this however made me realize that this is quite close
to what we actually already have with the Abort mode and the GoTo
mode.
It seems that what we need is actually a way to display the
information of multiple modes at the same time. For example while in
GoTo mode we could still draw the task on the map but in a less
emphasized color scheme.
Turbo
2013/1/15 Henrik Bieler <henrik.bie...@gmx.de>:
I thought about Turbos suggestion to do some brainstorming for a "big"
solution.
Here is what I came up with:
XCS Could have three "Navigation Modes"
TASK NAV1 NAV2
Task would be coupled to the task engine, while NAV1 and NAV2 can each
hold a "target" which can be Navigated to.
This can be an Airport, a Waypoint, An "Air"-Mark (mark Postition with
current Alt, eg. Thermal or Team Code), "Ground"-Mark (mark landable
field as you overfly it) etc.
One of the Modes is always the active mode.
The active mode is shown in the screen corner (next to the
cruise,climb,finalglide symbol) as
T or 1 or 2
Active mode can be switched by tapping on the Symbol, by gesture or
(if
configured) by hardware button.
The Navigation-Data of the active mode is drawn on the map (line)
and used by default in the Info-Boxes.
Each Navigation Infobox can be configured to show data of "ACTIVE",
"TASK", "NAV1" or "NAV2"
So if you setup your info-boxes accordingly, you can monitor
NAV-Data of
NAV1, NAV2, or even TASK no matter which mode is active.
I think this is very flexible to suit most users' needs.
WAYPOINT DIALOG
The GOTO button will set the point on NAV1 and make NAV1 the active
Mode
In the Details add a Row called "SET NAV" with two sqare buttons
"1" and
"2", this will not change active mode.
MAP ELEMENTS DIALOG
same as above
ALTERNATES DIALOG
same as above plus add option "AUTO ALTERNATE NAV1/2", this would
be the
momentary autoselect behaviour
ABORT and RESUME TASK
are obsolete now. Your task is alway there and selectable via
Navigation
Mode.
What do you think? I you like the concept I could try to sketch the
Mode-Annunciation and the Buttons in the dialogs, but it will take
some
time ;-)
Greets Henrik
Am 15.01.2013 00:04, schrieb Tobias Bieniek:
and why do you want to restrict that on Alternates? why not the last
thermal? why not your teammate via Flarm or teamcode? why not your
home airport? I think if we do this we should do it right and make it
flexible to account for these things too. But as I said, I have no
idea yet how...
Maybe when you click on the "Next Waypoint" infobox a dialog could
open that let's you choose your target or something like that. Time
for brain storming :)
Turbo
2013/1/14 Henrik Bieler <henrik.bie...@gmx.de>:
Hey all !
I support Horts request to enhance Alternates' capability.
Personally I would not need a whole new concept (like Task, Airport,
Waypoint Screens).
For me I would be very happy if I could select Alternate1 and 2
myself
(from Waypointlist, Map, etc as mentioned)
and have the basic infoboxes available for them (Distance,
Heading to /
Bearing from, Arrival Alt, GR required)
Most of the time I want to keep navigating on task but still keep
an eye
on one or two specific alternates.
The behaviour as it is now (automatic selection) could be default
until
the pilot explicitly selects an alternate.
Greets Henrik
PS: One could nicely use this for ATC Position reports as well. Just
need an Alternate1-DistanceInNm-BearingFrom Infobox.
Am 14.01.2013 23:33, schrieb Horst Rupp:
Hi Turbo,
I am perfectly willing to dive into this - once I am past
fledgling status
on XCSoar programming. Can't wait to see you in Sobernheim.
In order to prepare a concept , please tell what you need more
or in what
form - apart from the text in ticket #2039 or
<http://forum.xcsoar.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=578>. What is a
concept for you
? I have written a <use case> (in terms of IT requirement
management).
Keep me posted, Turbo.
Robert, do these writing sound reasonable for you ?
Cheers Horst
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Tobias Bieniek [mailto:tobias.bien...@gmx.de]
Gesendet: Montag, 14. Januar 2013 22:48
An: Horst Rupp
Cc: xcsoar-user@lists.sourceforge.net; Robert Hart
Betreff: Re: An alternate turn point while running a task?
I've thought about this a bit in the last days, and I have to
say that I'm
starting to get it. I've used the LX5000 a lot in the past and
my glider now
has a DX50, which is the predecessor. In those devices you have
an airport-,
a waypoint- and task-screen and for each you can define a
different target.
At some point I realized that this is pretty much what LK8000 is
also doing
with their MultiTarget system. I have to admit that this isn't
quite as easy
in XCSoar yet, but I certainly see the benefits of something
like that...
I'd be glad if somebody would come up with a proper concept on
how to do
this in XCSoar. I would very much prefer simple sketches over
reading
several pages of text BTW ;)
Turbo
2013/1/14 Horst Rupp <ho...@rupp-family.de>:
Hi Turbo, Robert,
I strongly support this idea. Please also see ticket # 2039, which
formulates an even wider demand and encompasses the requirements
sketched by Robert.
I was reprimanded :-) that the ticket list is no forum for such
wide
discussions. So, I am looking forward to have that issue alive
on this
channel.
The current concept of how XCSoar deals with alternates is of only
very limited use and should be developed into more useful feature.
Horst Rupp
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 09:14:10 +0100
From: Tobias Bieniek <tobias.bien...@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Xcsoar-user] An alternate turn point while
running a
task?
To: Robert Hart <ha...@interweft.com.au>
Cc: XCSoar Users <xcsoar-user@lists.sourceforge.net>
Message-ID:
<cabeoetnk7oltfmbxzm-g+bedpqglprepqbzbup_lubdeyca...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
You can always "GoTo" another waypoint and once you don't need
that
anymore you can "Resume Task" from the Nav menu. I guess
though what
you want is something more like what the LX devices do with their
separate Airport, Waypoint and Task modes, right?
Turbo
2013/1/8 Robert Hart <ha...@interweft.com.au>:
Hi
I was discussing this with a few pilots here at the
multi-class comps.
The idea is that it would be useful in some circumstances to
have
XCSoar be able to provide information to some non task turn
point
without having to abort the task to do so.
This would be particularly useful when having to cross
unlandable
terrain as XCSoar could provide information on a point behind
you
(perhaps a dropped point on a landable paddock) whilst
continuing on
task. I used to do this with my old Cambridge Nav system.
What do others think of this idea?
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