I agree with Dan. I am also finding the trail (make sure to change it to full)
very useful to find previous thermals.
For me the most benefit (and probably easiest to implement) is to keep
everything the same and just allow the pilot to select the alternate instead of
auto select. I found the auto select to be rather problematic since often the
closest landable waypoint may be an emergency field you don't want to normally
consider.
However I also understand that others may want additional functionality, so
whatever the decision is, *please* do not change or impact existing
functionality. Please remember that majority of users, at least in the US,
don't fly tasks. Many of them don't subscribe to any forum, barely read the
manual and use XCSoar as configured out of the box.
Thanks,
Ramy
On Jan 15, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Dan Marotta <dcmaro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> All of this is very interesting to a retired systems engineer, but, why do
> you need a separate NAV mode to find the last thermal? Simply turn on trails
> (full, long, or short) and it's trivial to fly back to the last thermal. I
> also find trails to be very useful in wave flying.
>
>
> On 1/15/2013 5:14 AM, Henrik Bieler wrote:
>> I thought a lot about naming the modes. The reason I came up with TASK NAV1
>> and NAV2 is that is imo the most flexible and still easy to understand.
>> Creating seperate screens for each mode would be a lot overhead I think and
>> would run against our goal to monitor different Navigation-Targets at the
>> same time.
>>
>> Let me give you a few use cases as Horst suggested:
>>
>> 1) Non XC-Pilot, new to XCS(eg. in a club glider), flying around the home
>> field:
>> Set the home-field on NAV1 and make this mode active. (Just hit Goto,
>> and you are done)
>> - no need to understand or fiddle with tasks
>> - if you need an alternate choose it from the map or Alternates dialog.
>> Hit Goto (This will Set this point on NAV1)
>>
>> 2) Advanced non-XC Pilot
>> Set home field on NAV1 active, Set Auto Alternates Mode on NAV2,
>> Configure an additional Infobox to show Heading and ArrAlt for NAV2
>> - no need to use task
>> - Main navigation always to home field
>> - you can see the NAV Data for the Suggested Alternate in the additional
>> Infobox
>> - if you want to go to your alternate just switch Navigation Mode to
>> NAV2 (one tap on the "1" in the screen corner)
>> - if you found a thermal just cycle throug the Navigation Modes back to
>> NAV1 (two taps)
>> - instead of an Alternate you could also use NAV2 to set the LastThermal
>> Marker etc...
>>
>> 3) XC-Pilot on Task
>> Set Task in Task Editor (will be available through TASK), Set one or even
>> two additional Infoboxes showing NAV-Data of NAV1 (and NAV2)
>> - Task is always maximum 2 taps away (cycle throung NAV-Modes)
>> - Set on NAV1 maybe an Alternate / Auto Alternate etc. You can monitar
>> NAV-Data in the additional Info box(es). If you need to go there just
>> switch Navigation Mode to NAV1
>> - Set on NAV2 maybe a marker, last thermal, or in the future maybe the
>> Auto-Updated position of your Teammate from Skylines....*dreaming*
>> - You have some basic Info always available through the additional Info
>> box (eg. distance to teammate), just cycle Navigation mode to NAV2 and you
>> are actually going there. Just cycle back to TASK anytime... :-)
>>
>> I like it because you could keep Navigating easy for xcs beginners, you have
>> all flexibiliy you want for experts and it is easier to implement future
>> features.
>>
>>
>> Cheers Henrik
>>
>>
>> Am 15.01.2013 12:07, schrieb Tobias Bieniek:
>>> I think that sounds pretty good already. Maybe instead of two NAV
>>> modes we would have a NAV mode and an ALT mode. The ALT mode could use
>>> the automatic alternate selection, while the NAV mode uses the GoTo
>>> target.
>>>
>>> Typing it like this however made me realize that this is quite close
>>> to what we actually already have with the Abort mode and the GoTo
>>> mode.
>>>
>>> It seems that what we need is actually a way to display the
>>> information of multiple modes at the same time. For example while in
>>> GoTo mode we could still draw the task on the map but in a less
>>> emphasized color scheme.
>>>
>>> Turbo
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/1/15 Henrik Bieler <henrik.bie...@gmx.de>:
>>>> I thought about Turbos suggestion to do some brainstorming for a "big"
>>>> solution.
>>>> Here is what I came up with:
>>>>
>>>> XCS Could have three "Navigation Modes"
>>>>
>>>> TASK NAV1 NAV2
>>>>
>>>> Task would be coupled to the task engine, while NAV1 and NAV2 can each
>>>> hold a "target" which can be Navigated to.
>>>> This can be an Airport, a Waypoint, An "Air"-Mark (mark Postition with
>>>> current Alt, eg. Thermal or Team Code), "Ground"-Mark (mark landable
>>>> field as you overfly it) etc.
>>>>
>>>> One of the Modes is always the active mode.
>>>> The active mode is shown in the screen corner (next to the
>>>> cruise,climb,finalglide symbol) as
>>>>
>>>> T or 1 or 2
>>>>
>>>> Active mode can be switched by tapping on the Symbol, by gesture or (if
>>>> configured) by hardware button.
>>>>
>>>> The Navigation-Data of the active mode is drawn on the map (line)
>>>> and used by default in the Info-Boxes.
>>>>
>>>> Each Navigation Infobox can be configured to show data of "ACTIVE",
>>>> "TASK", "NAV1" or "NAV2"
>>>> So if you setup your info-boxes accordingly, you can monitor NAV-Data of
>>>> NAV1, NAV2, or even TASK no matter which mode is active.
>>>> I think this is very flexible to suit most users' needs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> WAYPOINT DIALOG
>>>> The GOTO button will set the point on NAV1 and make NAV1 the active Mode
>>>> In the Details add a Row called "SET NAV" with two sqare buttons "1" and
>>>> "2", this will not change active mode.
>>>>
>>>> MAP ELEMENTS DIALOG
>>>> same as above
>>>>
>>>> ALTERNATES DIALOG
>>>> same as above plus add option "AUTO ALTERNATE NAV1/2", this would be the
>>>> momentary autoselect behaviour
>>>>
>>>> ABORT and RESUME TASK
>>>> are obsolete now. Your task is alway there and selectable via Navigation
>>>> Mode.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What do you think? I you like the concept I could try to sketch the
>>>> Mode-Annunciation and the Buttons in the dialogs, but it will take some
>>>> time ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Greets Henrik
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 15.01.2013 00:04, schrieb Tobias Bieniek:
>>>>> and why do you want to restrict that on Alternates? why not the last
>>>>> thermal? why not your teammate via Flarm or teamcode? why not your
>>>>> home airport? I think if we do this we should do it right and make it
>>>>> flexible to account for these things too. But as I said, I have no
>>>>> idea yet how...
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe when you click on the "Next Waypoint" infobox a dialog could
>>>>> open that let's you choose your target or something like that. Time
>>>>> for brain storming :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Turbo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2013/1/14 Henrik Bieler <henrik.bie...@gmx.de>:
>>>>>> Hey all !
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I support Horts request to enhance Alternates' capability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally I would not need a whole new concept (like Task, Airport,
>>>>>> Waypoint Screens).
>>>>>> For me I would be very happy if I could select Alternate1 and 2 myself
>>>>>> (from Waypointlist, Map, etc as mentioned)
>>>>>> and have the basic infoboxes available for them (Distance, Heading to /
>>>>>> Bearing from, Arrival Alt, GR required)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most of the time I want to keep navigating on task but still keep an eye
>>>>>> on one or two specific alternates.
>>>>>> The behaviour as it is now (automatic selection) could be default until
>>>>>> the pilot explicitly selects an alternate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Greets Henrik
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PS: One could nicely use this for ATC Position reports as well. Just
>>>>>> need an Alternate1-DistanceInNm-BearingFrom Infobox.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 14.01.2013 23:33, schrieb Horst Rupp:
>>>>>>> Hi Turbo,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am perfectly willing to dive into this - once I am past fledgling
>>>>>>> status
>>>>>>> on XCSoar programming. Can't wait to see you in Sobernheim.
>>>>>>> In order to prepare a concept , please tell what you need more or in
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> form - apart from the text in ticket #2039 or
>>>>>>> <http://forum.xcsoar.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=578>. What is a concept
>>>>>>> for you
>>>>>>> ? I have written a <use case> (in terms of IT requirement management).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Keep me posted, Turbo.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Robert, do these writing sound reasonable for you ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers Horst
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>>>> Von: Tobias Bieniek [mailto:tobias.bien...@gmx.de]
>>>>>>> Gesendet: Montag, 14. Januar 2013 22:48
>>>>>>> An: Horst Rupp
>>>>>>> Cc: xcsoar-user@lists.sourceforge.net; Robert Hart
>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: An alternate turn point while running a task?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've thought about this a bit in the last days, and I have to say that
>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>> starting to get it. I've used the LX5000 a lot in the past and my
>>>>>>> glider now
>>>>>>> has a DX50, which is the predecessor. In those devices you have an
>>>>>>> airport-,
>>>>>>> a waypoint- and task-screen and for each you can define a different
>>>>>>> target.
>>>>>>> At some point I realized that this is pretty much what LK8000 is also
>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>> with their MultiTarget system. I have to admit that this isn't quite as
>>>>>>> easy
>>>>>>> in XCSoar yet, but I certainly see the benefits of something like
>>>>>>> that...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd be glad if somebody would come up with a proper concept on how to
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> this in XCSoar. I would very much prefer simple sketches over reading
>>>>>>> several pages of text BTW ;)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Turbo
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2013/1/14 Horst Rupp <ho...@rupp-family.de>:
>>>>>>>> Hi Turbo, Robert,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I strongly support this idea. Please also see ticket # 2039, which
>>>>>>>> formulates an even wider demand and encompasses the requirements
>>>>>>>> sketched by Robert.
>>>>>>>> I was reprimanded :-) that the ticket list is no forum for such wide
>>>>>>>> discussions. So, I am looking forward to have that issue alive on this
>>>>>>>> channel.
>>>>>>>> The current concept of how XCSoar deals with alternates is of only
>>>>>>>> very limited use and should be developed into more useful feature.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Horst Rupp
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 09:14:10 +0100
>>>>>>>>> From: Tobias Bieniek <tobias.bien...@gmx.de>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Xcsoar-user] An alternate turn point while running a
>>>>>>>>> task?
>>>>>>>>> To: Robert Hart <ha...@interweft.com.au>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: XCSoar Users <xcsoar-user@lists.sourceforge.net>
>>>>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <cabeoetnk7oltfmbxzm-g+bedpqglprepqbzbup_lubdeyca...@mail.gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You can always "GoTo" another waypoint and once you don't need that
>>>>>>>>> anymore you can "Resume Task" from the Nav menu. I guess though what
>>>>>>>>> you want is something more like what the LX devices do with their
>>>>>>>>> separate Airport, Waypoint and Task modes, right?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Turbo
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2013/1/8 Robert Hart <ha...@interweft.com.au>:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I was discussing this with a few pilots here at the multi-class
>>>>>>>>>> comps.
>>>>>>>>>> The idea is that it would be useful in some circumstances to have
>>>>>>>>>> XCSoar be able to provide information to some non task turn point
>>>>>>>>>> without having to abort the task to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This would be particularly useful when having to cross unlandable
>>>>>>>>>> terrain as XCSoar could provide information on a point behind you
>>>>>>>>>> (perhaps a dropped point on a landable paddock) whilst continuing on
>>>>>>>>>> task. I used to do this with my old Cambridge Nav system.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What do others think of this idea?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
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