I agree with Ramy: keep it as is. I want to make my own decisions, particularly when it comes to critical things like alternates. I wouldn't trust an "intelligent" algorithm to make the right decision for me. How can the system know that I prefer one out landing field over another? XCSoar is a source of (incomplete) information, not a decision maker.
Ronald Am 15.01.2013 18:39, schrieb Ramy Yanetz: > I agree with Dan. I am also finding the trail (make sure to change it to > full) very useful to find previous thermals. > For me the most benefit (and probably easiest to implement) is to keep > everything the same and just allow the pilot to select the alternate > instead of auto select. I found the auto select to be rather problematic > since often the closest landable waypoint may be an emergency field you > don't want to normally consider. > However I also understand that others may want additional functionality, > so whatever the decision is, *please* do not change or impact existing > functionality. Please remember that majority of users, at least in the > US, don't fly tasks. Many of them don't subscribe to any forum, barely > read the manual and use XCSoar as configured out of the box. > > Thanks, > > Ramy > > On Jan 15, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Dan Marotta <dcmaro...@earthlink.net > <mailto:dcmaro...@earthlink.net>> wrote: > >> All of this is very interesting to a retired systems engineer, but, >> why do you need a separate NAV mode to find the last thermal? Simply >> turn on trails (full, long, or short) and it's trivial to fly back to >> the last thermal. I also find trails to be very useful in wave flying. >> >> >> On 1/15/2013 5:14 AM, Henrik Bieler wrote: >>> I thought a lot about naming the modes. The reason I came up with >>> TASK NAV1 and NAV2 is that is imo the most flexible and still easy to >>> understand. >>> Creating seperate screens for each mode would be a lot overhead I >>> think and would run against our goal to monitor different >>> Navigation-Targets at the same time. >>> >>> Let me give you a few use cases as Horst suggested: >>> >>> 1) Non XC-Pilot, new to XCS(eg. in a club glider), flying around the >>> home field: >>> Set the home-field on NAV1 and make this mode active. (Just hit >>> Goto, and you are done) >>> - no need to understand or fiddle with tasks >>> - if you need an alternate choose it from the map or Alternates >>> dialog. Hit Goto (This will Set this point on NAV1) >>> >>> 2) Advanced non-XC Pilot >>> Set home field on NAV1 active, Set Auto Alternates Mode on NAV2, >>> Configure an additional Infobox to show Heading and ArrAlt for NAV2 >>> - no need to use task >>> - Main navigation always to home field >>> - you can see the NAV Data for the Suggested Alternate in the >>> additional Infobox >>> - if you want to go to your alternate just switch Navigation Mode >>> to NAV2 (one tap on the "1" in the screen corner) >>> - if you found a thermal just cycle throug the Navigation Modes >>> back to NAV1 (two taps) >>> - instead of an Alternate you could also use NAV2 to set the >>> LastThermal Marker etc... >>> >>> 3) XC-Pilot on Task >>> Set Task in Task Editor (will be available through TASK), Set one >>> or even two additional Infoboxes showing NAV-Data of NAV1 (and NAV2) >>> - Task is always maximum 2 taps away (cycle throung NAV-Modes) >>> - Set on NAV1 maybe an Alternate / Auto Alternate etc. You can >>> monitar NAV-Data in the additional Info box(es). If you need to go >>> there just switch Navigation Mode to NAV1 >>> - Set on NAV2 maybe a marker, last thermal, or in the future maybe >>> the Auto-Updated position of your Teammate from Skylines....*dreaming* >>> - You have some basic Info always available through the additional >>> Info box (eg. distance to teammate), just cycle Navigation mode to >>> NAV2 and you are actually going there. Just cycle back to TASK >>> anytime... :-) >>> >>> I like it because you could keep Navigating easy for xcs beginners, >>> you have all flexibiliy you want for experts and it is easier to >>> implement future features. >>> >>> >>> Cheers Henrik >>> >>> >>> Am 15.01.2013 12:07, schrieb Tobias Bieniek: >>>> I think that sounds pretty good already. Maybe instead of two NAV >>>> modes we would have a NAV mode and an ALT mode. The ALT mode could use >>>> the automatic alternate selection, while the NAV mode uses the GoTo >>>> target. >>>> >>>> Typing it like this however made me realize that this is quite close >>>> to what we actually already have with the Abort mode and the GoTo >>>> mode. >>>> >>>> It seems that what we need is actually a way to display the >>>> information of multiple modes at the same time. For example while in >>>> GoTo mode we could still draw the task on the map but in a less >>>> emphasized color scheme. >>>> >>>> Turbo >>>> >>>> >>>> 2013/1/15 Henrik Bieler <henrik.bie...@gmx.de>: >>>>> I thought about Turbos suggestion to do some brainstorming for a "big" >>>>> solution. >>>>> Here is what I came up with: >>>>> >>>>> XCS Could have three "Navigation Modes" >>>>> >>>>> TASK NAV1 NAV2 >>>>> >>>>> Task would be coupled to the task engine, while NAV1 and NAV2 can each >>>>> hold a "target" which can be Navigated to. >>>>> This can be an Airport, a Waypoint, An "Air"-Mark (mark Postition with >>>>> current Alt, eg. Thermal or Team Code), "Ground"-Mark (mark landable >>>>> field as you overfly it) etc. >>>>> >>>>> One of the Modes is always the active mode. >>>>> The active mode is shown in the screen corner (next to the >>>>> cruise,climb,finalglide symbol) as >>>>> >>>>> T or 1 or 2 >>>>> >>>>> Active mode can be switched by tapping on the Symbol, by gesture or >>>>> (if >>>>> configured) by hardware button. >>>>> >>>>> The Navigation-Data of the active mode is drawn on the map (line) >>>>> and used by default in the Info-Boxes. >>>>> >>>>> Each Navigation Infobox can be configured to show data of "ACTIVE", >>>>> "TASK", "NAV1" or "NAV2" >>>>> So if you setup your info-boxes accordingly, you can monitor >>>>> NAV-Data of >>>>> NAV1, NAV2, or even TASK no matter which mode is active. >>>>> I think this is very flexible to suit most users' needs. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> WAYPOINT DIALOG >>>>> The GOTO button will set the point on NAV1 and make NAV1 the active >>>>> Mode >>>>> In the Details add a Row called "SET NAV" with two sqare buttons >>>>> "1" and >>>>> "2", this will not change active mode. >>>>> >>>>> MAP ELEMENTS DIALOG >>>>> same as above >>>>> >>>>> ALTERNATES DIALOG >>>>> same as above plus add option "AUTO ALTERNATE NAV1/2", this would >>>>> be the >>>>> momentary autoselect behaviour >>>>> >>>>> ABORT and RESUME TASK >>>>> are obsolete now. Your task is alway there and selectable via >>>>> Navigation >>>>> Mode. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What do you think? I you like the concept I could try to sketch the >>>>> Mode-Annunciation and the Buttons in the dialogs, but it will take >>>>> some >>>>> time ;-) >>>>> >>>>> Greets Henrik >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Am 15.01.2013 00:04, schrieb Tobias Bieniek: >>>>>> and why do you want to restrict that on Alternates? why not the last >>>>>> thermal? why not your teammate via Flarm or teamcode? why not your >>>>>> home airport? I think if we do this we should do it right and make it >>>>>> flexible to account for these things too. But as I said, I have no >>>>>> idea yet how... >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe when you click on the "Next Waypoint" infobox a dialog could >>>>>> open that let's you choose your target or something like that. Time >>>>>> for brain storming :) >>>>>> >>>>>> Turbo >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2013/1/14 Henrik Bieler <henrik.bie...@gmx.de>: >>>>>>> Hey all ! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I support Horts request to enhance Alternates' capability. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Personally I would not need a whole new concept (like Task, Airport, >>>>>>> Waypoint Screens). >>>>>>> For me I would be very happy if I could select Alternate1 and 2 >>>>>>> myself >>>>>>> (from Waypointlist, Map, etc as mentioned) >>>>>>> and have the basic infoboxes available for them (Distance, >>>>>>> Heading to / >>>>>>> Bearing from, Arrival Alt, GR required) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Most of the time I want to keep navigating on task but still keep >>>>>>> an eye >>>>>>> on one or two specific alternates. >>>>>>> The behaviour as it is now (automatic selection) could be default >>>>>>> until >>>>>>> the pilot explicitly selects an alternate. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Greets Henrik >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PS: One could nicely use this for ATC Position reports as well. Just >>>>>>> need an Alternate1-DistanceInNm-BearingFrom Infobox. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Am 14.01.2013 23:33, schrieb Horst Rupp: >>>>>>>> Hi Turbo, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am perfectly willing to dive into this - once I am past >>>>>>>> fledgling status >>>>>>>> on XCSoar programming. Can't wait to see you in Sobernheim. >>>>>>>> In order to prepare a concept , please tell what you need more >>>>>>>> or in what >>>>>>>> form - apart from the text in ticket #2039 or >>>>>>>> <http://forum.xcsoar.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=578>. What is a >>>>>>>> concept for you >>>>>>>> ? I have written a <use case> (in terms of IT requirement >>>>>>>> management). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Keep me posted, Turbo. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Robert, do these writing sound reasonable for you ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers Horst >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- >>>>>>>> Von: Tobias Bieniek [mailto:tobias.bien...@gmx.de] >>>>>>>> Gesendet: Montag, 14. Januar 2013 22:48 >>>>>>>> An: Horst Rupp >>>>>>>> Cc: xcsoar-user@lists.sourceforge.net; Robert Hart >>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: An alternate turn point while running a task? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've thought about this a bit in the last days, and I have to >>>>>>>> say that I'm >>>>>>>> starting to get it. I've used the LX5000 a lot in the past and >>>>>>>> my glider now >>>>>>>> has a DX50, which is the predecessor. In those devices you have >>>>>>>> an airport-, >>>>>>>> a waypoint- and task-screen and for each you can define a >>>>>>>> different target. >>>>>>>> At some point I realized that this is pretty much what LK8000 is >>>>>>>> also doing >>>>>>>> with their MultiTarget system. I have to admit that this isn't >>>>>>>> quite as easy >>>>>>>> in XCSoar yet, but I certainly see the benefits of something >>>>>>>> like that... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'd be glad if somebody would come up with a proper concept on >>>>>>>> how to do >>>>>>>> this in XCSoar. I would very much prefer simple sketches over >>>>>>>> reading >>>>>>>> several pages of text BTW ;) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Turbo >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2013/1/14 Horst Rupp <ho...@rupp-family.de>: >>>>>>>>> Hi Turbo, Robert, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I strongly support this idea. Please also see ticket # 2039, which >>>>>>>>> formulates an even wider demand and encompasses the requirements >>>>>>>>> sketched by Robert. >>>>>>>>> I was reprimanded :-) that the ticket list is no forum for such >>>>>>>>> wide >>>>>>>>> discussions. So, I am looking forward to have that issue alive >>>>>>>>> on this >>>>>>>>> channel. >>>>>>>>> The current concept of how XCSoar deals with alternates is of only >>>>>>>>> very limited use and should be developed into more useful feature. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Horst Rupp >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 09:14:10 +0100 >>>>>>>>>> From: Tobias Bieniek <tobias.bien...@gmx.de> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Xcsoar-user] An alternate turn point while >>>>>>>>>> running a >>>>>>>>>> task? >>>>>>>>>> To: Robert Hart <ha...@interweft.com.au> >>>>>>>>>> Cc: XCSoar Users <xcsoar-user@lists.sourceforge.net> >>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <cabeoetnk7oltfmbxzm-g+bedpqglprepqbzbup_lubdeyca...@mail.gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You can always "GoTo" another waypoint and once you don't need >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> anymore you can "Resume Task" from the Nav menu. I guess >>>>>>>>>> though what >>>>>>>>>> you want is something more like what the LX devices do with their >>>>>>>>>> separate Airport, Waypoint and Task modes, right? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Turbo >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2013/1/8 Robert Hart <ha...@interweft.com.au>: >>>>>>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I was discussing this with a few pilots here at the >>>>>>>>>>> multi-class comps. >>>>>>>>>>> The idea is that it would be useful in some circumstances to >>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> XCSoar be able to provide information to some non task turn >>>>>>>>>>> point >>>>>>>>>>> without having to abort the task to do so. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This would be particularly useful when having to cross >>>>>>>>>>> unlandable >>>>>>>>>>> terrain as XCSoar could provide information on a point behind >>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>> (perhaps a dropped point on a landable paddock) whilst >>>>>>>>>>> continuing on >>>>>>>>>>> task. I used to do this with my old Cambridge Nav system. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What do others think of this idea? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET <http://ASP.NET>, >>>>>>>> C# 2012, HTML5, CSS, >>>>>>>> MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills >>>>>>>> current >>>>>>>> with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft >>>>>>>> MVPs and experts. 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