I think your opinion is very well put, but in response to Bill's assertion that 
what has the political situation in Tibet got to with Zen I would say that 
everything we do as members of a society has political ramifications. Even if 
we do nothing, claiming to be apolitical, we still end up unwittingly 
supporting the status quo. Further, what about the vows repeated daily in Zen 
temples everywhere to save countless beings? Could it be argued that by doing 
nothing to help people practice freedom of religion (in this case towards 
Enlightenment) against state control we might pave the way for state control of 
religion (or individual practice of that religion) in countries where Zen 
itself is practiced? Again, everything we do (or not do), is political.

----- Original Message ----
From: craig omanion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 10 February, 2008 9:21:24 AM
Subject: SV: RE: [Zen] Re: D.L.

The Dalai Lama came to Atlanta recently and was well recieved....
I wouldn't want to be a martyr either... could it be that he gets more done by 
not becoming a martyr? 
If he can just get westerners to show more compassion/respect for human life 
that would be good. Tibet is under the clutches of China. The entire country 
could martyr themselves and it wouldn't change the current political situation.
Personally I don't look for heros and leaders. I do my sitting - that's what I 
do. Leaders don't mean anything to me. 
I believe there have already been enough people to lay down their lives for 
ideas. If it helped others to be free that would be one thing.... but the Dalai 
Lama.... he's an international teacher of a certain type of Buddhism.
As for Zen//Buddhism. ... of course Zen grew out of Buddhism. In a way, maybe 
Zen out-simplified Buddhism.
Regardless of the differences, 'Buddhism' as a word means 'aware-ism'. Zen 
takes you to the same place in practicing it. So, the differences are not 
personally important to me.
In general, I hold few opinions and those I seem to have I hold lightly. 
Opinions/dogmas, etc.., they just weigh too much.

Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED] org> skrev:
Jue Miao Jing Ming,
Thanks for the history lesson.  I was aware of all of those things except the 
part about Mongolia.  I thought it still was a part of China.  In any event 
the state of being part of China or not part of China is, like all things, 
transitory.  Some years high hemlines are in; some years they are not.
Anyway my point was, and the only point that should be pertinent in this forum, 
what does all this have to do with zen?  Is or should the nationalistic 
aspirations of a country, or their people’s fight for political freedom or 
social equality, linked somehow to zen?  I think not.  In my opinion zen 
practice does not concern itself with and is not influenced by such things.
I might add here that I don’t consider zen and Buddhism the same thing, nor 
do I consider zen a sub-set of Buddhism, nor inextricably associated with 
Buddhism in any way.  So, if your answer is going to be that social justice is 
a concern of Buddhism, you’re not answering my question.  My questions is 
about zen, not Buddhism.
Thanks again for your post…Bill!
From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 [mailto:chan. [EMAIL PROTECTED] com] 
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 10:41 PM
Subject: [Zen] Re: D.L.
As always, each time, when we expressed an opinion, we could take usually just 
one position. This DL issue is much more complicated and no different than most 
of the world events. How can we express all the opinions from all different 
angles with language? I don't know the answer.

Here are some different angles...

The Tibetan religion is propagated on the reincarnation of the next leader.  
When the monks rushed DL out, at such young age, was trying to protect the 
linage.  At that moment, their motives perhaps was quite simple.

Thanks to DL, the world now realized that there is such a place called Tibet 
and their Ripoche is all over the world teaching Tibetan-Buddhism.

How many of you understood what happened to Mongolia?  It used to be part of 
China.  Now it is not.

Why can't the Chinese government leave the Tibetans alone.  They lived for 
generations in Tibet without ever interfered in Chinese politics.  

Historically to most of the China men, Tibet and Mongolia are not the Han race. 
 Therefore usually the non-Han are regarded as non-Chinese, or shall I shall 
barbarians.  The Han's never really respected all the other races in China.  In 
the US, people are at least aware of the racial issues.  In China, the racial 
issue does  not exist, because that's the way it always is and always will be.  
i.e. Servants are still being bought (like slaves) and send as gift s among the 
rich in China today.

China's democracy will be possible only after the traditional, deep rooted 
social classes are normalized.  This will take generations, because it was not 
being exposed or shall I educated to the general public.  Money is power is 
what the Chinese believed in for 5,000 years.  Not human value. Pity is  what 
most the Chinese practiced than compassion deep down inside.

Well?   :-)

Al wrote: 
From: "Cynth" <Chinese Army would have him assassinated and they'd
> choose his replacement to control the people of Tibet.

They chose his replacement anyway. Lama is the leader of a government in
exile, which is a lot like being the gal standing outside your former
employment, picketing after you have been fired.

The bottom line is that if the Dalai Lama were to walk the walk, he would be
in Tibet. Whether he would be a martyr or not? Odds are that he would be
imprisoned. Nelson Mandela spent 24 years in prison for what he believed.
Jesus Christ gave up his life for what he believed. So did Ghandhi and a
whole laundry list of religious figures throughout history. The pages of
history are colored with the blood of martyrs.

Dolly Lama is certainly not one of them. He prefers paid speaking
engagements to martyrdom. Dolly sits in his mansion sipping mint julips
while anonymous monks get martyred on his behalf. A real hero.

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