Bad Post Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Smart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> This is exactly the same as my perspective without the due 
> respect...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Edgar,
> > Thanks for the reply and insight. I'm just finding it really hard 
> to intergrate my understanding and experience of Zen with the 
> importance some people here are placing on chi. I can appreciate 
that 
> chi exists and may even be the source of form and emptiness, but at 
> the end of the day I just don't believe it is essential to know or 
> experience chi in order to live a Zen life. With due respect, I 
think 
> JMJM's Chan is just a highly developed technique which allows a 
> person to feel chi and so feel somewhat spiritualised 
> and 'connected'. I've felt something very similar in my Vipassana 
> meditation (Vipassana uses a technique which generates a lot of chi 
> and this is then used to 'scan' the body to feel the most minute, 
> subtle sensations within and on the surface of the body), however 
it 
> is still a technique. I'm not saying techniques are a bad thing - 
> after all zazen meditation is a technique . What I am saying tho' 
is 
> that ultimately ALL techniques are just
> >  rafts which need to be discarded after reaching the other shore 
> (the shore we're already on, of course). Zen is just simply living 
> life fully in the moment and doesn't require anything extra in the 
> way of 'energy currents', God, or listening to our 'inner-dolphin'. 
> Mike.
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > 
> > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, 11 September, 2008 7:41:41
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] JUDO
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Mike,
> > 
> > An excellent post from someone who obviously has direct 
experience 
> of what he's talking about.
> > 
> > The huffing and puffing type of concentration of chi is primarily 
> useful in demonstrations of force in set conditions such as 
breaking 
> bricks. Bricks don't avoid punches or  strike back! In such cases 
one 
> can concentrate on concentrating one's chi against the unchanging 
chi 
> of the bricks and take one's time. However in interactive 
situations 
> with a live opponent things are much different and concentrating on 
> one's own chi in this way is not usually the best tactic. 
> > 
> > Against a live opponent the key is emptiness, or as you say 
mushin. 
> If you are full of concentrating on your own chi your focus and 
your 
> energy will be in that concentration of chi, not on the total 
> interactive situation with the opponent. The emptier of such 
> concentration one is the faster and more appropriately one can act. 
> The idea is to be empty of self so that you are maximally aware and 
> tuned to the flow of the total situation and are able to respond 
> instantly and naturally to any change the opponent makes in the 
unity 
> of the whole situation. This too is actually chi, but not a huff 
and 
> puff concentration of chi in one's own hara, but a maximal 
awareness 
> and response to the total chi of the entire situation that exists 
> between you and your opponent. If you erect no chi barrier to your 
> opponent you are able to sense instantly any change he makes to the 
> chi flow you share with him and respond optimally - assuming you 
have 
> the training to do so of
> >  course.
> > 
> > This all goes to a very important point. What to do with 
> realization, what to do with Zen? As Bill noted, he spends 99% of 
his 
> life out of zazen. No matter how enlightened we exist in the world 
of 
> maya where causality holds sway. With Zen we can realize that is 
> illusion, but we still must exist within it. The big question is 
how 
> to bring Zen into that world in our daily lives 24/7. 
> > 
> > Al points to the way here. The key is to be empty. That doesn't 
> mean to be empty of chi, but to be empty of any hinderances to the 
> flow of chi. When we are empty of such blockages we are continually 
> being filled with the chi of the present here now which flows 
through 
> us unobstructed, and out of this flow our own action originates 
> naturally and spontaneously. Most people's action originates from 
> their hinderances to the free flow of chi, those internal forms in 
> which they try to trap chi, that is the internal forms in which 
most 
> people try to structure and hold chi according to their particular 
> desires, and thoughts, those forms which they call their self. But 
> true Zen action arises directly from the free unhindered flow of 
the 
> chi of the present moment through one's center. We see that 
> brilliantly in the finest martial artists such as the aikido of 
> Ueshiba Morihei, but it also works in every aspect of daily life if 
> we just empty ourselves and tune to
> >  the chi of the moment, and let that originate our actions 
without 
> hinderance.
> > 
> > Edgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Sep 10, 2008, at 7:44 AM, mike brown wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Al, 
> > I'm a Kyokushin karate practioner and have represented Australia 
> (actually I'm Welsh, but it's a long story..) at the international 
> level. I have found Zen to be indispensable when fighting in 
> competitions. If you start worrying negatively about the outcome of 
> the fight, or regret not training hard enough then by the time you 
> get on the mat you'll have expended too much nervous energy and/or 
> react too slow to your opponents strikes and kicks. In training the 
> same Zen principles applies - the kick or punch you throw NOW is 
the 
> most important kick or punch you will ever throw in your life so 
put 
> 100% into it.
> > 
> >  The outcome of this training is the development of mushin 
(or 'no 
> mind') where the fear of losing and injury doesn't exist. The 
> Japanese call this spirit 'Budo'. Any focus on 'Chi' is minimal or 
> non-existent although that's not to say it doesn't exist. It's just 
> that focusing on the mind/ego thru zazen is much more  important 
and 
> crucial to this development. I've often seen kung fu players 
> performing intricate chi-type exercises before a competion and then 
> come out and get their arses kicked by fighters who wouldn't know 
> their chi if it jumped and bit them on their [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Fitness63 <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net>
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 10 September, 2008 12:26:56
> > Subject: [Zen] JUDO
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > By the way, I learned a lot from that old Judo instructor. He is 
a 
> very nice guy and now he is in his 80s.
> >  
> > I think that he felt that Judo and Zen were intertwined and that 
> zen helped him focus his CHI to be better at Judo.
> >  
> > I think that is why the samurai also were devoted to zen. It was 
> not because they were atheists who believed in nothing. I would 
like 
> to hear from those who have experience in Judo or other martial 
arts 
> and whether or not you are aware of CHI and if it has any 
> relationship to zazen in your experience.
> >
>



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