Bad Post Bill!
--- In [email protected], "Bill Smart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> This is exactly the same as my perspective without the due
> respect...Bill!
>
> --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Edgar,
> > Thanks for the reply and insight. I'm just finding it really hard
> to intergrate my understanding and experience of Zen with the
> importance some people here are placing on chi. I can appreciate
that
> chi exists and may even be the source of form and emptiness, but at
> the end of the day I just don't believe it is essential to know or
> experience chi in order to live a Zen life. With due respect, I
think
> JMJM's Chan is just a highly developed technique which allows a
> person to feel chi and so feel somewhat spiritualised
> and 'connected'. I've felt something very similar in my Vipassana
> meditation (Vipassana uses a technique which generates a lot of chi
> and this is then used to 'scan' the body to feel the most minute,
> subtle sensations within and on the surface of the body), however
it
> is still a technique. I'm not saying techniques are a bad thing -
> after all zazen meditation is a technique . What I am saying tho'
is
> that ultimately ALL techniques are just
> > rafts which need to be discarded after reaching the other shore
> (the shore we're already on, of course). Zen is just simply living
> life fully in the moment and doesn't require anything extra in the
> way of 'energy currents', God, or listening to our 'inner-dolphin'.
> Mike.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> >
> > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Thursday, 11 September, 2008 7:41:41
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] JUDO
> >
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > An excellent post from someone who obviously has direct
experience
> of what he's talking about.
> >
> > The huffing and puffing type of concentration of chi is primarily
> useful in demonstrations of force in set conditions such as
breaking
> bricks. Bricks don't avoid punches or strike back! In such cases
one
> can concentrate on concentrating one's chi against the unchanging
chi
> of the bricks and take one's time. However in interactive
situations
> with a live opponent things are much different and concentrating on
> one's own chi in this way is not usually the best tactic.
> >
> > Against a live opponent the key is emptiness, or as you say
mushin.
> If you are full of concentrating on your own chi your focus and
your
> energy will be in that concentration of chi, not on the total
> interactive situation with the opponent. The emptier of such
> concentration one is the faster and more appropriately one can act.
> The idea is to be empty of self so that you are maximally aware and
> tuned to the flow of the total situation and are able to respond
> instantly and naturally to any change the opponent makes in the
unity
> of the whole situation. This too is actually chi, but not a huff
and
> puff concentration of chi in one's own hara, but a maximal
awareness
> and response to the total chi of the entire situation that exists
> between you and your opponent. If you erect no chi barrier to your
> opponent you are able to sense instantly any change he makes to the
> chi flow you share with him and respond optimally - assuming you
have
> the training to do so of
> > course.
> >
> > This all goes to a very important point. What to do with
> realization, what to do with Zen? As Bill noted, he spends 99% of
his
> life out of zazen. No matter how enlightened we exist in the world
of
> maya where causality holds sway. With Zen we can realize that is
> illusion, but we still must exist within it. The big question is
how
> to bring Zen into that world in our daily lives 24/7.
> >
> > Al points to the way here. The key is to be empty. That doesn't
> mean to be empty of chi, but to be empty of any hinderances to the
> flow of chi. When we are empty of such blockages we are continually
> being filled with the chi of the present here now which flows
through
> us unobstructed, and out of this flow our own action originates
> naturally and spontaneously. Most people's action originates from
> their hinderances to the free flow of chi, those internal forms in
> which they try to trap chi, that is the internal forms in which
most
> people try to structure and hold chi according to their particular
> desires, and thoughts, those forms which they call their self. But
> true Zen action arises directly from the free unhindered flow of
the
> chi of the present moment through one's center. We see that
> brilliantly in the finest martial artists such as the aikido of
> Ueshiba Morihei, but it also works in every aspect of daily life if
> we just empty ourselves and tune to
> > the chi of the moment, and let that originate our actions
without
> hinderance.
> >
> > Edgar
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sep 10, 2008, at 7:44 AM, mike brown wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Al,
> > I'm a Kyokushin karate practioner and have represented Australia
> (actually I'm Welsh, but it's a long story..) at the international
> level. I have found Zen to be indispensable when fighting in
> competitions. If you start worrying negatively about the outcome of
> the fight, or regret not training hard enough then by the time you
> get on the mat you'll have expended too much nervous energy and/or
> react too slow to your opponents strikes and kicks. In training the
> same Zen principles applies - the kick or punch you throw NOW is
the
> most important kick or punch you will ever throw in your life so
put
> 100% into it.
> >
> > The outcome of this training is the development of mushin
(or 'no
> mind') where the fear of losing and injury doesn't exist. The
> Japanese call this spirit 'Budo'. Any focus on 'Chi' is minimal or
> non-existent although that's not to say it doesn't exist. It's just
> that focusing on the mind/ego thru zazen is much more important
and
> crucial to this development. I've often seen kung fu players
> performing intricate chi-type exercises before a competion and then
> come out and get their arses kicked by fighters who wouldn't know
> their chi if it jumped and bit them on their [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Fitness63 <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net>
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 10 September, 2008 12:26:56
> > Subject: [Zen] JUDO
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > By the way, I learned a lot from that old Judo instructor. He is
a
> very nice guy and now he is in his 80s.
> >
> > I think that he felt that Judo and Zen were intertwined and that
> zen helped him focus his CHI to be better at Judo.
> >
> > I think that is why the samurai also were devoted to zen. It was
> not because they were atheists who believed in nothing. I would
like
> to hear from those who have experience in Judo or other martial
arts
> and whether or not you are aware of CHI and if it has any
> relationship to zazen in your experience.
> >
>
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