That's pretty much in line with my terminology. But the difference in approach I think is this. We find ourselves in a dualistic world in which forms (different manifestations of chi or THIS) do exist. Of course Zen sees they are ultimately illusion and empty, but that doesn't make them go away. We still have to deal with them in daily life. Perhaps we can ignore them in zazen but in the other 99% of existence we need to dance with them. My view is that in daily life if we become empty of self, of things people think define their selves like trivial thoughts, desires and attachments, then we become open to the daily life form flows of Buddha nature, or chi or whatever and thus we spontaneously act in accord with the basic music of the Uni-Verse. That is true Zen in daily life which one might quip is 99x as important as Zen during zazen. The idea is how to have true Zen in daily life, in the world of forms, which even though we may recognize them as illusory are still there. To do that we have to give up the self and become one with the form flow. That allows the Tao to spontaneously act of its own accord and generate the actions of the illusory form we call ourself. This is as close as 'we' can come to being one with the universe while we live in the world of forms. That is true Zen in daily life in the form world we inhabit.


On Sep 11, 2008, at 9:09 AM, Bill Smart wrote:


Thanks for trying to clargy this.

I accept your explanation of how you use the word 'chi' or 'OE', and
have never disagreed with it. I have first encountered it as being
called Buddha Nature and now refer to it as Just THIS! becasue I
don't want it to be tied to tightly to Buddhism.

BUT, my point has always been that as soon as you enter into a
dualistic despription of chi, assigning it such qualities as personal
chi, universal chi, good chi, bad chi, feminine chi, masuline chi,
stong chi, weak chi, etc..., you are no longer talking about chi,
you're just babbling about some illusions and attachments you have in
regards to the concept of chi.


--- In, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Mike, and Bill too,
> I think the problem you and Bill are having is in thinking of chi
> something in particular rather than of the very stuff or substance
> everything which is what it is in the sense I (and at least to
> extent JM) are using it. Chi is not something that martial artists
> 'generate' and that other people don't have. Everything is
> of chi. It is the only substance of the universe. There is nothing
> else except the particular forms that arise within it which have
> substance of their own. In this view the universe consists only of
> chi and the empty forms chi takes on which have no reality
> of their own. I generally use the term OE (ontological energy) for
> chi. It is what gives otherwise empty forms actual real being in
> present moment.
> So Mike and Bill's emptiness is simply chi that isn't moving, that
> devoid of form. Calling chi chi is just terminology. One could
> it Mu, Tao, OE, emptiness or anything else just so long as we know
> what we are talking about. It is the definition we are using that
> counts. Don't go by some huff and puffing guy who thinks only he
> chi. All of us ARE chi, simply forms in the sea of chi, forms in
> universal sea of OE.
> So in the stillness of Zen meditation perhaps chi is hardly
> but in daily life chi moves constantly, and Zen is being in tune
> that movement. That's the same as saying what MIke and Bill are
> saying since chi is intrinsically empty, Mu, void, Tao. It is only
> the forms within chi that really move.
> Edgar
> On Sep 11, 2008, at 4:28 AM, mike brown wrote:
> >
> > Hi Edgar,
> > Thanks for the reply and insight. I'm just finding it really
> > to intergrate my understanding and experience of Zen with the
> > importance some people here are placing on chi. I can appreciate
> > that chi exists and may even be the source of form and
> > but at the end of the day I just don't believe it is essential
> > know or experience chi in order to live a Zen life. With due
> > respect, I think JMJM's Chan is just a highly developed
> > which allows a person to feel chi and so feel somewhat
> > spiritualised and 'connected'. I've felt something very similar
> > my Vipassana meditation (Vipassana uses a technique which
> > a lot of chi and this is then used to 'scan' the body to feel
> > most minute, subtle sensations within and on the surface of the
> > body), however it is still a technique. I'm not saying
> > are a bad thing - after all zazen meditation is a technique .
> > I am saying tho' is that ultimately ALL techniques are just
> > which need to be discarded after reaching the other shore (the
> > shore we're already on, of course). Zen is just simply living
> > fully in the moment and doesn't require anything extra in the
> > of 'energy currents', God, or listening to our 'inner-dolphin'.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To:
> > Sent: Thursday, 11 September, 2008 7:41:41
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] JUDO
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> >
> > An excellent post from someone who obviously has direct
> > of what he's talking about.
> >
> > The huffing and puffing type of concentration of chi is
> > useful in demonstrations of force in set conditions such as
> > breaking bricks. Bricks don't avoid punches or strike back! In
> > such cases one can concentrate on concentrating one's chi
> > the unchanging chi of the bricks and take one's time. However in
> > interactive situations with a live opponent things are much
> > different and concentrating on one's own chi in this way is not
> > usually the best tactic.
> >
> > Against a live opponent the key is emptiness, or as you say
> > If you are full of concentrating on your own chi your focus and
> > your energy will be in that concentration of chi, not on the
> > interactive situation with the opponent. The emptier of such
> > concentration one is the faster and more appropriately one can
> > The idea is to be empty of self so that you are maximally aware
> > tuned to the flow of the total situation and are able to respond
> > instantly and naturally to any change the opponent makes in the
> > unity of the whole situation. This too is actually chi, but not
> > huff and puff concentration of chi in one's own hara, but a
> > awareness and response to the total chi of the entire situation
> > that exists between you and your opponent. If you erect no chi
> > barrier to your opponent you are able to sense instantly any
> > he makes to the chi flow you share with him and respond
optimally -
> > assuming you have the training to do so of course.
> >
> > This all goes to a very important point. What to do with
> > realization, what to do with Zen? As Bill noted, he spends 99%
> > his life out of zazen. No matter how enlightened we exist in the
> > world of maya where causality holds sway. With Zen we can
> > that is illusion, but we still must exist within it. The big
> > question is how to bring Zen into that world in our daily lives
> >
> > Al points to the way here. The key is to be empty. That doesn't
> > mean to be empty of chi, but to be empty of any hinderances to
> > flow of chi. When we are empty of such blockages we are
> > being filled with the chi of the present here now which flows
> > through us unobstructed, and out of this flow our own action
> > originates naturally and spontaneously. Most people's action
> > originates from their hinderances to the free flow of chi, those
> > internal forms in which they try to trap chi, that is the
> > forms in which most people try to structure and hold chi
> > to their particular desires, and thoughts, those forms which
> > call their self. But true Zen action arises directly from the
> > unhindered flow of the chi of the present moment through one's
> > center. We see that brilliantly in the finest martial artists
> > as the aikido of Ueshiba Morihei, but it also works in every
> > of daily life if we just empty ourselves and tune to the chi of
> > moment, and let that originate our actions without hinderance.
> >
> > Edgar
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sep 10, 2008, at 7:44 AM, mike brown wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Hi Al,
> >> I'm a Kyokushin karate practioner and have represented
> >> (actually I'm Welsh, but it's a long story..) at the
> >> level. I have found Zen to be indispensable when fighting in
> >> competitions. If you start worrying negatively about the
> >> of the fight, or regret not training hard enough then by the
> >> you get on the mat you'll have expended too much nervous energy
> >> and/or react too slow to your opponents strikes and kicks. In
> >> training the same Zen principles applies - the kick or punch
> >> throw NOW is the most important kick or punch you will ever
> >> in your life so put 100% into it.
> >>
> >> The outcome of this training is the development of mushin
(or 'no
> >> mind') where the fear of losing and injury doesn't exist. The
> >> Japanese call this spirit 'Budo'. Any focus on 'Chi' is minimal
> >> non-existent although that's not to say it doesn't exist. It's
> >> just that focusing on the mind/ego thru zazen is much more
> >> important and crucial to this development. I've often seen kung
> >> players performing intricate chi-type exercises before a
> >> and then come out and get their arses kicked by fighters who
> >> wouldn't know their chi if it jumped and bit them on their
> >> Mike.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----
> >> From: Fitness63 <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, 10 September, 2008 12:26:56
> >> Subject: [Zen] JUDO
> >>
> >>
> >> By the way, I learned a lot from that old Judo instructor. He is
> >> very nice guy and now he is in his 80s.
> >>
> >> I think that he felt that Judo and Zen were intertwined and
> >> zen helped him focus his CHI to be better at Judo.
> >>
> >> I think that is why the samurai also were devoted to zen. It
> >> not because they were atheists who believed in nothing. I would
> >> like to hear from those who have experience in Judo or other
> >> martial arts and whether or not you are aware of CHI and if it
> >> any relationship to zazen in your experience.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >

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