Chris,
I'll always show you all the respect you're due...;>)
Also, whether you ridicule or compliment I'm still Bill! What else
could I be?
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "cid830" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Good Bill. I can always count on you bring back to the path of
True
> Zen. Although I do believe in this Universal Life Force and the chi
> that flows throughout, it is my belief in zen that has gotten me
> here. Here! Now! Everything else is just an illusion.
>
> Sorry I have been joking with you lately, please take it as a
> compliment!
>
> Later,
> Chris
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Smart" <BillSmart@> wrote:
> >
> > Edgar,
> >
> > Thanks for trying to clargy this.
> >
> > I accept your explanation of how you use the word 'chi' or 'OE',
> and
> > have never disagreed with it. I have first encountered it as
being
> > called Buddha Nature and now refer to it as Just THIS! becasue I
> > don't want it to be tied to tightly to Buddhism.
> >
> > BUT, my point has always been that as soon as you enter into a
> > dualistic despription of chi, assigning it such qualities as
> personal
> > chi, universal chi, good chi, bad chi, feminine chi, masuline
chi,
> > stong chi, weak chi, etc..., you are no longer talking about chi,
> > you're just babbling about some illusions and attachments you
have
> in
> > regards to the concept of chi.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Mike, and Bill too,
> > >
> > > I think the problem you and Bill are having is in thinking of
chi
> > as
> > > something in particular rather than of the very stuff or
> substance
> > of
> > > everything which is what it is in the sense I (and at least to
> > some
> > > extent JM) are using it. Chi is not something that martial
> artists
> > > 'generate' and that other people don't have. Everything is
> > composed
> > > of chi. It is the only substance of the universe. There is
> nothing
> > > else except the particular forms that arise within it which
have
> > no
> > > substance of their own. In this view the universe consists only
> of
> > > chi and the empty forms chi takes on which have no reality
> > substance
> > > of their own. I generally use the term OE (ontological energy)
> for
> > > chi. It is what gives otherwise empty forms actual real being
in
> > the
> > > present moment.
> > >
> > > So Mike and Bill's emptiness is simply chi that isn't moving,
> that
> > is
> > > devoid of form. Calling chi chi is just terminology. One could
> > call
> > > it Mu, Tao, OE, emptiness or anything else just so long as we
> know
> > > what we are talking about. It is the definition we are using
> that
> > > counts. Don't go by some huff and puffing guy who thinks only
he
> > has
> > > chi. All of us ARE chi, simply forms in the sea of chi, forms
in
> > the
> > > universal sea of OE.
> > >
> > > So in the stillness of Zen meditation perhaps chi is hardly
> > moving,
> > > but in daily life chi moves constantly, and Zen is being in
tune
> > with
> > > that movement. That's the same as saying what MIke and Bill
are
> > > saying since chi is intrinsically empty, Mu, void, Tao. It is
> only
> > > the forms within chi that really move.
> > >
> > > Edgar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sep 11, 2008, at 4:28 AM, mike brown wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Edgar,
> > > > Thanks for the reply and insight. I'm just finding it really
> > hard
> > > > to intergrate my understanding and experience of Zen with
the
> > > > importance some people here are placing on chi. I can
> appreciate
> > > > that chi exists and may even be the source of form and
> > emptiness,
> > > > but at the end of the day I just don't believe it is
essential
> > to
> > > > know or experience chi in order to live a Zen life. With due
> > > > respect, I think JMJM's Chan is just a highly developed
> > technique
> > > > which allows a person to feel chi and so feel somewhat
> > > > spiritualised and 'connected'. I've felt something very
similar
> > in
> > > > my Vipassana meditation (Vipassana uses a technique which
> > generates
> > > > a lot of chi and this is then used to 'scan' the body to feel
> > the
> > > > most minute, subtle sensations within and on the surface of
> the
> > > > body), however it is still a technique. I'm not saying
> > techniques
> > > > are a bad thing - after all zazen meditation is a technique .
> > What
> > > > I am saying tho' is that ultimately ALL techniques are just
> > rafts
> > > > which need to be discarded after reaching the other shore
(the
> > > > shore we're already on, of course). Zen is just simply living
> > life
> > > > fully in the moment and doesn't require anything extra in the
> > way
> > > > of 'energy currents', God, or listening to our 'inner-
dolphin'.
> > Mike.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>
> > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Thursday, 11 September, 2008 7:41:41
> > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] JUDO
> > > >
> > > > Hi Mike,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > An excellent post from someone who obviously has direct
> > experience
> > > > of what he's talking about.
> > > >
> > > > The huffing and puffing type of concentration of chi is
> > primarily
> > > > useful in demonstrations of force in set conditions such as
> > > > breaking bricks. Bricks don't avoid punches or strike back!
> In
> > > > such cases one can concentrate on concentrating one's chi
> > against
> > > > the unchanging chi of the bricks and take one's time. However
> in
> > > > interactive situations with a live opponent things are much
> > > > different and concentrating on one's own chi in this way is
> not
> > > > usually the best tactic.
> > > >
> > > > Against a live opponent the key is emptiness, or as you say
> > mushin.
> > > > If you are full of concentrating on your own chi your focus
> and
> > > > your energy will be in that concentration of chi, not on the
> > total
> > > > interactive situation with the opponent. The emptier of such
> > > > concentration one is the faster and more appropriately one
can
> > act.
> > > > The idea is to be empty of self so that you are maximally
aware
> > and
> > > > tuned to the flow of the total situation and are able to
> respond
> > > > instantly and naturally to any change the opponent makes in
> the
> > > > unity of the whole situation. This too is actually chi, but
not
> > a
> > > > huff and puff concentration of chi in one's own hara, but a
> > maximal
> > > > awareness and response to the total chi of the entire
> situation
> > > > that exists between you and your opponent. If you erect no
chi
> > > > barrier to your opponent you are able to sense instantly any
> > change
> > > > he makes to the chi flow you share with him and respond
> > optimally -
> > > > assuming you have the training to do so of course.
> > > >
> > > > This all goes to a very important point. What to do with
> > > > realization, what to do with Zen? As Bill noted, he spends
99%
> > of
> > > > his life out of zazen. No matter how enlightened we exist in
> the
> > > > world of maya where causality holds sway. With Zen we can
> > realize
> > > > that is illusion, but we still must exist within it. The big
> > > > question is how to bring Zen into that world in our daily
lives
> > 24/7.
> > > >
> > > > Al points to the way here. The key is to be empty. That
> doesn't
> > > > mean to be empty of chi, but to be empty of any hinderances
to
> > the
> > > > flow of chi. When we are empty of such blockages we are
> > continually
> > > > being filled with the chi of the present here now which
flows
> > > > through us unobstructed, and out of this flow our own action
> > > > originates naturally and spontaneously. Most people's action
> > > > originates from their hinderances to the free flow of chi,
> those
> > > > internal forms in which they try to trap chi, that is the
> > internal
> > > > forms in which most people try to structure and hold chi
> > according
> > > > to their particular desires, and thoughts, those forms which
> > they
> > > > call their self. But true Zen action arises directly from the
> > free
> > > > unhindered flow of the chi of the present moment through
one's
> > > > center. We see that brilliantly in the finest martial artists
> > such
> > > > as the aikido of Ueshiba Morihei, but it also works in every
> > aspect
> > > > of daily life if we just empty ourselves and tune to the chi
of
> > the
> > > > moment, and let that originate our actions without hinderance.
> > > >
> > > > Edgar
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sep 10, 2008, at 7:44 AM, mike brown wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >> Hi Al,
> > > >> I'm a Kyokushin karate practioner and have represented
> > Australia
> > > >> (actually I'm Welsh, but it's a long story..) at the
> > international
> > > >> level. I have found Zen to be indispensable when fighting
in
> > > >> competitions. If you start worrying negatively about the
> > outcome
> > > >> of the fight, or regret not training hard enough then by the
> > time
> > > >> you get on the mat you'll have expended too much nervous
> energy
> > > >> and/or react too slow to your opponents strikes and kicks.
In
> > > >> training the same Zen principles applies - the kick or punch
> > you
> > > >> throw NOW is the most important kick or punch you will ever
> > throw
> > > >> in your life so put 100% into it.
> > > >>
> > > >> The outcome of this training is the development of mushin
> > (or 'no
> > > >> mind') where the fear of losing and injury doesn't exist.
The
> > > >> Japanese call this spirit 'Budo'. Any focus on 'Chi' is
> minimal
> > or
> > > >> non-existent although that's not to say it doesn't exist.
> It's
> > > >> just that focusing on the mind/ego thru zazen is much more
> > > >> important and crucial to this development. I've often seen
> kung
> > fu
> > > >> players performing intricate chi-type exercises before a
> > competion
> > > >> and then come out and get their arses kicked by fighters
who
> > > >> wouldn't know their chi if it jumped and bit them on their
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >> Mike.
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message ----
> > > >> From: Fitness63 <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net>
> > > >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, 10 September, 2008 12:26:56
> > > >> Subject: [Zen] JUDO
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> By the way, I learned a lot from that old Judo instructor.
He
> is
> > a
> > > >> very nice guy and now he is in his 80s.
> > > >>
> > > >> I think that he felt that Judo and Zen were intertwined and
> > that
> > > >> zen helped him focus his CHI to be better at Judo.
> > > >>
> > > >> I think that is why the samurai also were devoted to zen. It
> > was
> > > >> not because they were atheists who believed in nothing. I
> would
> > > >> like to hear from those who have experience in Judo or
other
> > > >> martial arts and whether or not you are aware of CHI and if
it
> > has
> > > >> any relationship to zazen in your experience.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
------------------------------------
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
