Hi Al, I think the tricky thing about zen is that it often feels that 'getting it' is always just around the corner or that if I just read the right book/passage/haiku/manga comic etc it'll all become clear to me. Unfortunately, this just takes us further than ever away from any kind of 'breakthru' into a zen life. As Bill says, we need to have faith that this thing actually works, but this alone is not enough (as opposed to most theistic belief systems). You have to do the hard work. That means plonking your arse down on a mat and doing zazen. There is no escape (for most of us) from this requirement. Just believing in zen is useless. However, even if you just get a tiny sniff of a breakthru' then a kind of 'knowing' (read - 'not knowing') occurs which surpasses mere faith/belief. True, this can't be measured objectively, but so what? You know the truth of the taste of a cup of tea, and even tho' it can't be measured objectively, you just know - it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Same with zen. You just live your life fully and hopefully your actions/words will indicate the truth of zen and how deep your zen is. Mike.
----- Original Message ---- From: Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, 13 September, 2008 9:03:15 Subject: [Zen] Re: Antwort: JUDO Al, Everthing you know and feel is based on belief and faith. Even science is based on the belief in cause and effect and faith in our rational capabilities. The belief in enlightenment and the faith that you can achieve it is what gets you started in zen. It's like dangling a carrot in front of a horse, or more accurately a picture of a carrot. The concept of enlightenment is indeed an illusion as is testified to over and over again in zen literature. The only thing that is not an illusion is Only THIS (Buddha Nature), but the only way you can really know that is to experience it. And to do that all you need to do is sit (zazen) and allow your concept of self to melt away. ...Bill! --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, "Fitness63" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] ..> wrote: > > From: cid830> We can only follow their teachings if we choose to accept > them, regardless of whether or not they actually taught them at all. > > > What we are talking about is the proverbial LEAP OF FAITH that is required > for any belief system, and thus zen, like any other religion or philosophy > requires that the adherent BELIEVE in what may very well be total fiction. > > So is Maya the illusion, or is the actual illusion that enlightenment that > so many strive to achieve and which cannot be objectively measured. After > all, when a Roshi says that he is enlightened, all we have is his word on > it, and the word of his peers. Can you measure or otherwise prove > enlightenment? Is enlightenment itself not an Illusion (Maya)? >
