Hi Edgar,

I agree with you in one sense - we're already 'there'. But sometimes you have 
to go on a journey just to realise you never really had to go in the first 
place. Same with zazen, Do you really believe all those past Zen masters would 
have realised their 'already' enlightened state without zazen? Mike.

----- Original Message ----
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 15 September, 2008 3:33:53
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Antwort:  JUDO

Mike and Bill and Al,

Zazen has nothing to do with Zen whatsoever. And I suspect Bill at least would 
agree with me. There is no requirement to do zazen or anything else whatever. 
Zazen may be an exercise that helps some people, others it may just stand in 
the way. Same about anything else one could possibly think of.

True zen is just finally admitting to yourself that you are already enlightened 
and have always been, that is just finally realizing what always existed that 
you just didn't notice before.

True Zen takes no 'work' of any kind whatsoever. You are already there, you 
just need to realize it.


On Sep 14, 2008, at 12:33 PM, mike brown wrote:

Hi  Al,
I think the tricky thing about zen is that it often feels that 'getting it' is 
always just around the corner or that if I just read the right book/passage/ 
haiku/manga comic etc it'll all become clear to me. Unfortunately, this just 
takes us further than ever away from any kind of 'breakthru' into a zen life. 
As Bill says, we need to have faith that this thing actually works, but this 
alone is not enough (as opposed to most theistic belief systems). You have to 
do the hard work. That means plonking your arse down on a mat and doing zazen. 
There is no escape (for most of us) from this requirement. Just believing in 
zen is useless. However, even if you just get a tiny sniff of a breakthru' then 
a kind of 'knowing' (read - 'not knowing') occurs which surpasses mere 
faith/belief. True, this can't be measured objectively, but so what? You know 
the truth of the taste of a cup of tea, and even tho' it can't be measured 
objectively, you just know - it doesn't
 matter what anyone else thinks. Same with zen. You just live your life fully 
and hopefully your actions/words will indicate the truth of zen and how deep 
your zen is. Mike. 

----- Original Message ----
From: Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED] org>
Sent: Saturday, 13 September, 2008 9:03:15
Subject: [Zen] Re: Antwort: JUDO


Everthing you know and feel is based on belief and faith. Even 
science is based on the belief in cause and effect and faith in our 
rational capabilities. The belief in enlightenment and the faith 
that you can achieve it is what gets you started in zen. It's like 
dangling a carrot in front of a horse, or more accurately a picture 
of a carrot.

The concept of enlightenment is indeed an illusion as is testified to 
over and over again in zen literature.

The only thing that is not an illusion is Only THIS (Buddha Nature), 
but the only way you can really know that is to experience it.

And to do that all you need to do is sit (zazen) and allow your 
concept of self to melt away.


--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, "Fitness63" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] ..> wrote:
> From: cid830> We can only follow their teachings if we choose to 
> them, regardless of whether or not they actually taught them at
all. >
> What we are talking about is the proverbial LEAP OF FAITH that is 
> for any belief system, and thus zen, like any other religion or 
> requires that the adherent BELIEVE in what may very well be total 
> So is Maya the illusion, or is the actual illusion that 
enlightenment that 
> so many strive to achieve and which cannot be objectively measured. 
> all, when a Roshi says that he is enlightened, all we have is his 
word on 
> it, and the word of his peers. Can you measure or otherwise prove 
> enlightenment? Is enlightenment itself not an Illusion (Maya)?



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