Mike and Bill and Al,
Zazen has nothing to do with Zen whatsoever. And I suspect Bill at
least would agree with me. There is no requirement to do zazen or
anything else whatever. Zazen may be an exercise that helps some
people, others it may just stand in the way. Same about anything else
one could possibly think of.
True zen is just finally admitting to yourself that you are already
enlightened and have always been, that is just finally realizing what
always existed that you just didn't notice before.
True Zen takes no 'work' of any kind whatsoever. You are already
there, you just need to realize it.
On Sep 14, 2008, at 12:33 PM, mike brown wrote:
I think the tricky thing about zen is that it often feels that
'getting it' is always just around the corner or that if I just
read the right book/passage/haiku/manga comic etc it'll all become
clear to me. Unfortunately, this just takes us further than ever
away from any kind of 'breakthru' into a zen life. As Bill says, we
need to have faith that this thing actually works, but this alone
is not enough (as opposed to most theistic belief systems). You
have to do the hard work. That means plonking your arse down on a
mat and doing zazen. There is no escape (for most of us) from this
requirement. Just believing in zen is useless. However, even if you
just get a tiny sniff of a breakthru' then a kind of
'knowing' (read - 'not knowing') occurs which surpasses mere faith/
belief. True, this can't be measured objectively, but so what? You
know the truth of the taste of a cup of tea, and even tho' it can't
be measured objectively, you just know - it doesn't matter what
anyone else thinks. Same with zen. You just live your life fully
and hopefully your actions/words will indicate the truth of zen and
how deep your zen is. Mike.
----- Original Message ----
From: Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, 13 September, 2008 9:03:15
Subject: [Zen] Re: Antwort: JUDO
Everthing you know and feel is based on belief and faith. Even
science is based on the belief in cause and effect and faith in our
rational capabilities. The belief in enlightenment and the faith
that you can achieve it is what gets you started in zen. It's like
dangling a carrot in front of a horse, or more accurately a picture
of a carrot.
The concept of enlightenment is indeed an illusion as is testified to
over and over again in zen literature.
The only thing that is not an illusion is Only THIS (Buddha Nature),
but the only way you can really know that is to experience it.
And to do that all you need to do is sit (zazen) and allow your
concept of self to melt away.
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, "Fitness63" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] ..> wrote:
> From: cid830> We can only follow their teachings if we choose to
> them, regardless of whether or not they actually taught them at
> What we are talking about is the proverbial LEAP OF FAITH that is
> for any belief system, and thus zen, like any other religion or
> requires that the adherent BELIEVE in what may very well be total
> So is Maya the illusion, or is the actual illusion that
> so many strive to achieve and which cannot be objectively measured.
> all, when a Roshi says that he is enlightened, all we have is his
> it, and the word of his peers. Can you measure or otherwise prove
> enlightenment? Is enlightenment itself not an Illusion (Maya)?