I agree with both of you, satori (first glimpse/initial breakthrough) 
in most cases does not occur during zazen itself.  But, as Mike has 
observed, usually occurs in direct assocation with zazen.  I think 
this is because before satori while sitting zazen you are trying very 
hard to breakthrough.  Usually that's with a koan like Mu.  When you 
take a break and are working in the garden or the kitchen, or just 
taking a walk your mind relaxes and then the breakthrough occurs.  
That's just a guess.

...Bill!  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Edgar,
> Again, in an ultimate sense I agree with you. Most satori 
experiences occur off the mat (we cannot determine when they happen 
so they are a kind of 'Grace', if you like), but for most people 
these experiences are usually preceded by many years of zazen and 
rarely occur independently from it (especially in relation to the 
past Zen masters). In fact, I would add that to receive a satori like 
experience without already practicing zazen could be detrimental to 
one's spiritual growth because you would probably not have 
the 'tools' to be able to integrate the experience into your daily 
life. I don't completely advocate the 'aching legs' school of Zen 
Buddhism (see Alan Watts), but as Bill says, I don't see any better 
way to recognising our inherent enlightenment. Mike.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 16 September, 2008 6:16:26
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Antwort:  JUDO
> 
> 
> Hi Mike,
> 
> When you read the accounts of enlightenment in Zen stories, the 
enlightenment or satori experience almost never occurs during zazen, 
but almost always in daily life doing something ordinary, though 
often in response to some event or words that suddenly enables them 
to see beyond the ordinary to the ordinary.
> 
> Only difference between zazen and daily life is you are (hopefully) 
dealing with fewer forms so might be easier to see the formless 
beyond the forms, but the formless is always present whether you are 
sitting in zazen or not. Just a matter of experiencing it.
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 14, 2008, at 4:12 PM, mike brown wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Edgar,
> 
> I agree with you in one sense - we're already 'there'. But 
sometimes you have to go on a journey just to realise you never 
really had to go in the first place. Same with zazen, Do you really 
believe all those past Zen masters would have realised 
their 'already' enlightened state without zazen? Mike.
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Sent: Monday, 15 September, 2008 3:33:53
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Antwort: JUDO
> 
> 
> Mike and Bill and Al,
> 
> Zazen has nothing to do with Zen whatsoever. And I suspect Bill at 
least would agree with me. There is no requirement to do zazen or 
anything else whatever. Zazen may be an exercise that helps some 
people, others it may just stand in the way. Same about anything else 
one could possibly think of.
> 
> True zen is just finally admitting to yourself that you are already 
enlightened and have always been, that is just finally realizing what 
always existed that you just didn't notice before.
> 
> True Zen takes no 'work' of any kind whatsoever. You are already 
there, you just need to realize it.
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 14, 2008, at 12:33 PM, mike brown wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi  Al,
> I think the tricky thing about zen is that it often feels 
that 'getting it' is always just around the corner or that if I just 
read the right book/passage/ haiku/manga comic etc it'll all become 
clear to me. Unfortunately, this just takes us further than ever away 
from any kind of 'breakthru' into a zen life. As Bill says, we need 
to have faith that this thing actually works, but this alone is not 
enough (as opposed to most theistic belief systems). You have to do 
the hard work. That means plonking your arse down on a mat and doing 
zazen. There is no escape (for most of us) from this requirement. 
Just believing in zen is useless. However, even if you just get a 
tiny sniff of a breakthru' then a kind of 'knowing' (read - 'not 
knowing') occurs which surpasses mere faith/belief. True, this can't 
be measured objectively, but so what? You know the truth of the taste 
of a cup of tea, and even tho' it can't be measured objectively, you 
just know - it doesn't
>  matter what anyone else thinks. Same with zen. You just live your 
life fully and hopefully your actions/words will indicate the truth 
of zen and how deep your zen is. Mike. 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED] org>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Sent: Saturday, 13 September, 2008 9:03:15
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Antwort: JUDO
> 
> 
> Al,
> 
> Everthing you know and feel is based on belief and faith. Even 
> science is based on the belief in cause and effect and faith in our 
> rational capabilities. The belief in enlightenment and the faith 
> that you can achieve it is what gets you started in zen. It's like 
> dangling a carrot in front of a horse, or more accurately a picture 
> of a carrot.
> 
> The concept of enlightenment is indeed an illusion as is testified 
to 
> over and over again in zen literature.
> 
> The only thing that is not an illusion is Only THIS (Buddha 
Nature), 
> but the only way you can really know that is to experience it.
> 
> And to do that all you need to do is sit (zazen) and allow your 
> concept of self to melt away.
> 
> ...Bill! 
> 
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, "Fitness63" <fitness63@ ..> 
wrote:
> >
> > From: cid830> We can only follow their teachings if we choose to 
> accept 
> > them, regardless of whether or not they actually taught them at
> all. >
> > 
> > What we are talking about is the proverbial LEAP OF FAITH that is 
> required 
> > for any belief system, and thus zen, like any other religion or 
> philosophy 
> > requires that the adherent BELIEVE in what may very well be total 
> fiction.
> > 
> > So is Maya the illusion, or is the actual illusion that 
> enlightenment that 
> > so many strive to achieve and which cannot be objectively 
measured. 
> After 
> > all, when a Roshi says that he is enlightened, all we have is his 
> word on 
> > it, and the word of his peers. Can you measure or otherwise prove 
> > enlightenment? Is enlightenment itself not an Illusion (Maya)?
> >
>



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