Hi Bill,

I don't, and rarely think about death. Just responding to Anthony who I believe brought it up. I do however think a proper understanding of consciousness is important on the path to Zen, and death helps us understand the true nature of consciousness.

Edgar



On Oct 8, 2008, at 8:15 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Al and Edgar,

With all due respect I fail to see the relevance of this discussion of whether consciousness survives the death of the body. Who cares? We only have today, right now. Tomorrow will never exist, much less death.

Don't take this post as a request for you to stop your discussion, but I'd like to know why you have such an interest in this topic.

Thanks...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 4:59 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

Edgar,

We need to talk more to gradually understand each other. As regards consciousness surviving the body, please read nderf.org for scientific evidence.

Regards,
Anthony

--- On Wed, 8/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 8 October, 2008, 8:00 AM
Anthony,

I don't consider myself a nihilist, though I can see how nihilists might consider me as such. I don't think nihilism has concepts of Zen, it just might accept all the negatives of Zen though. Also I don't think there is any scientific conclusion that consciousness survives the body at all, just the opposite.

Edgar

On Oct 7, 2008, at 6:42 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:

Hi Edgar,

That is why I assume you are a nihilist. Wait a moment. Doctors (non-religious) have concluded consciousness survives the body. Though they cannot prove what comes after death. That is a scientific conclusion so far.

Regards,
Anthony

--- On Tue, 7/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Tuesday, 7 October, 2008, 10:38 PM
Hi Anthony,

I understand that Tibetans believe that Bardo occurs after death, but I think it's an nde instead since I don't believe in 'after death'. As I implied in my previous post nde's don't prove consciousness persists after death, only that the consciousness (the brain) takes a while to gradually shut down after the rest of the body does. Death is not an instantaneous occurrence, it proceeds from the outside in towards the center of consciousness where a tiny flame lingers for awhile before finally going out.

This was written about by Kazantzakis at the end of 'The Odyssey, A Modern Sequel' BTW.

Gosh, I'm almost depressing myself here! :-)

Edgar

On Oct 6, 2008, at 10:51 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:

Hi Edgar,

Are you a materialist or nihilist? I hope you are right. If I come to nothing after death. That is perfect. What if the Tibetan Buddhism is right and I go through a lot of horrible things in the bardo period. Please note the bardo appears after death, while nde occurs when still alive, or half dead. The latter only has a glimpse of the other world and then comes back to earth. That is why nders mainly have bliss. Few have hell. If you read nde literature, the researchers has consensus that consciousness survive the body.
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 7:15 AM
Hi Anthony,

Just punch old Mahakasyapa in the nose when you meet him. He will disappear along with the rest of them. All those Bardo characters are illusion. Read the Tibetan Book of the Dead for instructions on what to do after you die. Then be prepared for something totally different. In any case the Bardo realm is not when you are completely dead, but just during the gradual process of death when time slows as the external layers of your body shut down and your consciousness gradually retreats towards the center of your brain. After that which may seem a long time but is not really very long in external time there is not even nothing so all problems will be over.

Anyway glad to see I am cheering you up already!
:-)

Edgar

On Oct 5, 2008, at 6:57 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:

Edgar,

I would like to send you an email after I die, but Mahakasyapa says it is unlikely you will receive one. If I am enjoying life in heaven, I would not care about the earth because all things there are dirty, not worth even thinking about. If I am suffering in hell, I will not be capable of sending a message, because the devil who tortures me will not allow it. In either case, you will be receive an email. Sorry.

Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 6:45 AM
Anthony,

I wouldn't worry about suffering after death. Just let go of worry suffering right now. In the very unlikely event you find you are still suffering after death then send me another email....
:-)

Edgar

On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:

Hi Edgar,

I can only appreciate and agree. As a zen master says, "an imaginery pain is more painful than a real one". But just in case, can we do something, less than becoming a Buddha, to avoid suffering after death? Or should we just ignore it as a foolish idea?

regards,
Anthony

--- On Sun, 5/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] . .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Sunday, 5 October, 2008, 11:06 PM
JM and Anthony,

If I can add just one more point. Most of Anthony's current 'suffering' seems to be from worrying about something which hasn't yet happened and may never happen to him. As JM points out, it is certainly not real here now....... This suffering from worrying about a nonexistent future simply needs to be let go of. Why magnify the very pain of dying you worry about by worrying about it when it hasn't even happened and may never happen? That's clinging to the very thing you wish to avoid....

Edgar

On Oct 5, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:

Hi Anthony,

This is an important question.

Bill and Edgar both have stated many times that only the present moment
is real. A direct experience is the only thing matters. I am not sure
either of them will continue to post regarding this issue. And I agree
with them.

Since you still "want" to know and "believe and hope" there got to be
more than "just this". Perhaps I can answer in a traditional Chinese
Buddhist way about end of life.

As you know, when Hui-Neng died, his body did not deteriorate. His body
is still being preserved on an altar without refrigeration in Canton.
Can this be interpreted that if any of us practice enough, we can die
gracefully. Does this help?

My personal experience is, if we continue to meditate, we will
eventually worry less, ask less questions and witness the fact that the
present moment is the only thing real.

JM

Anthony Wu wrote:
>
> I would like to come back to Al's profound question. The thread he
> started is getting long and branching out. Can you simply say 'this is
> it?' How do you react to pain? A famous zen master Daisetsu Suzuki
> went through a lot of suffering in his last days. I am scared to think
> about that. If he cannot avoid suffering, how can I? How about you
> all? Are you sure you will leave this world peacefully?
>
> Regards,
> Anthony
>
> --- On *Sat, 4/10/08, Al /<actionheroes@ yahoo.com>/* wrote:
>
> From: Al <actionheroes@ yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Zen] Aging and Zen
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Date: Saturday, 4 October, 2008, 2:14 AM
>
> As we all get older, and some of us are a lot older, the question for
> me now is this: Does Zen give you everything you want? Are you
> willing
> to die sitting on a cushion just saying "this is it?" No Heaven for
> you? No Nirvana? No nothing? Just worms??
>
>
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