Al and Edgar,
With all due respect I fail to see the relevance of this discussion
of whether consciousness survives the death of the body. Who cares?
We only have today, right now. Tomorrow will never exist, much less
death.
Don't take this post as a request for you to stop your discussion,
but I'd like to know why you have such an interest in this topic.
Thanks...Bill!
From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 4:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
Edgar,
We need to talk more to gradually understand each other. As regards
consciousness surviving the body, please read nderf.org for
scientific evidence.
Regards,
Anthony
--- On Wed, 8/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [email protected]
Date: Wednesday, 8 October, 2008, 8:00 AM
Anthony,
I don't consider myself a nihilist, though I can see how nihilists
might consider me as such. I don't think nihilism has concepts of
Zen, it just might accept all the negatives of Zen though. Also I
don't think there is any scientific conclusion that consciousness
survives the body at all, just the opposite.
Edgar
On Oct 7, 2008, at 6:42 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:
Hi Edgar,
That is why I assume you are a nihilist. Wait a moment. Doctors
(non-religious) have concluded consciousness survives the body.
Though they cannot prove what comes after death. That is a
scientific conclusion so far.
Regards,
Anthony
--- On Tue, 7/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Tuesday, 7 October, 2008, 10:38 PM
Hi Anthony,
I understand that Tibetans believe that Bardo occurs after death,
but I think it's an nde instead since I don't believe in 'after
death'. As I implied in my previous post nde's don't prove
consciousness persists after death, only that the consciousness
(the brain) takes a while to gradually shut down after the rest of
the body does. Death is not an instantaneous occurrence, it
proceeds from the outside in towards the center of consciousness
where a tiny flame lingers for awhile before finally going out.
This was written about by Kazantzakis at the end of 'The Odyssey, A
Modern Sequel' BTW.
Gosh, I'm almost depressing myself here! :-)
Edgar
On Oct 6, 2008, at 10:51 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:
Hi Edgar,
Are you a materialist or nihilist? I hope you are right. If I come
to nothing after death. That is perfect. What if the Tibetan
Buddhism is right and I go through a lot of horrible things in the
bardo period. Please note the bardo appears after death, while nde
occurs when still alive, or half dead. The latter only has a
glimpse of the other world and then comes back to earth. That is
why nders mainly have bliss. Few have hell. If you read nde
literature, the researchers has consensus that consciousness
survive the body.
Regards,
Anthony
--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 7:15 AM
Hi Anthony,
Just punch old Mahakasyapa in the nose when you meet him. He will
disappear along with the rest of them. All those Bardo characters
are illusion. Read the Tibetan Book of the Dead for instructions on
what to do after you die. Then be prepared for something totally
different. In any case the Bardo realm is not when you are
completely dead, but just during the gradual process of death when
time slows as the external layers of your body shut down and your
consciousness gradually retreats towards the center of your brain.
After that which may seem a long time but is not really very long
in external time there is not even nothing so all problems will be
over.
Anyway glad to see I am cheering you up already!
:-)
Edgar
On Oct 5, 2008, at 6:57 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:
Edgar,
I would like to send you an email after I die, but Mahakasyapa says
it is unlikely you will receive one. If I am enjoying life in
heaven, I would not care about the earth because all things there
are dirty, not worth even thinking about. If I am suffering in
hell, I will not be capable of sending a message, because the devil
who tortures me will not allow it. In either case, you will be
receive an email. Sorry.
Regards,
Anthony
--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 6:45 AM
Anthony,
I wouldn't worry about suffering after death. Just let go of worry
suffering right now. In the very unlikely event you find you are
still suffering after death then send me another email....
:-)
Edgar
On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:
Hi Edgar,
I can only appreciate and agree. As a zen master says, "an
imaginery pain is more painful than a real one". But just in case,
can we do something, less than becoming a Buddha, to avoid
suffering after death? Or should we just ignore it as a foolish idea?
regards,
Anthony
--- On Sun, 5/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] . .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Sunday, 5 October, 2008, 11:06 PM
JM and Anthony,
If I can add just one more point. Most of Anthony's current
'suffering' seems to be from worrying about something which hasn't
yet happened and may never happen to him. As JM points out, it is
certainly not real here now....... This suffering from worrying
about a nonexistent future simply needs to be let go of. Why
magnify the very pain of dying you worry about by worrying about it
when it hasn't even happened and may never happen? That's clinging
to the very thing you wish to avoid....
Edgar
On Oct 5, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:
Hi Anthony,
This is an important question.
Bill and Edgar both have stated many times that only the present
moment
is real. A direct experience is the only thing matters. I am not sure
either of them will continue to post regarding this issue. And I agree
with them.
Since you still "want" to know and "believe and hope" there got to be
more than "just this". Perhaps I can answer in a traditional Chinese
Buddhist way about end of life.
As you know, when Hui-Neng died, his body did not deteriorate. His
body
is still being preserved on an altar without refrigeration in Canton.
Can this be interpreted that if any of us practice enough, we can die
gracefully. Does this help?
My personal experience is, if we continue to meditate, we will
eventually worry less, ask less questions and witness the fact that
the
present moment is the only thing real.
JM
Anthony Wu wrote:
>
> I would like to come back to Al's profound question. The thread he
> started is getting long and branching out. Can you simply say
'this is
> it?' How do you react to pain? A famous zen master Daisetsu Suzuki
> went through a lot of suffering in his last days. I am scared to
think
> about that. If he cannot avoid suffering, how can I? How about you
> all? Are you sure you will leave this world peacefully?
>
> Regards,
> Anthony
>
> --- On *Sat, 4/10/08, Al /<actionheroes@ yahoo.com>/* wrote:
>
> From: Al <actionheroes@ yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Zen] Aging and Zen
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Date: Saturday, 4 October, 2008, 2:14 AM
>
> As we all get older, and some of us are a lot older, the question
for
> me now is this: Does Zen give you everything you want? Are you
> willing
> to die sitting on a cushion just saying "this is it?" No Heaven for
> you? No Nirvana? No nothing? Just worms??
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Get your preferred Email name!
> <http://sg.rd. yahoo.com/ sg/mail/domainch oice/mail/ signature/
*http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ sg/>
>
> Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail. .com.
>
________________________________________
New Email names for you!
Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and
@rocketmail.
Hurry before someone else does!
________________________________________
Get your new Email address!
Grab the Email name you've always wanted before someone else does!
________________________________________
Get your preferred Email name!
Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail. .com.
________________________________________
Try the new Yahoo! Messenger 9.0 It is finally here!
________________________________________
Yahoo! Toolbar is now powered with Search Assist. Download it now!
__________ NOD32 3502 (20081007) Information __________
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com
