Al and Edgar,

With all due respect I fail to see the relevance of this discussion of whether 
consciousness survives the death of the body.  Who cares?  We only have today, 
right now.  Tomorrow will never exist, much less death.

Don't take this post as a request for you to stop your discussion, but I'd like 
to know why you have such an interest in this topic.

Thanks...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony 
Wu
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 4:59 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"

Edgar,
 
We need to talk more to gradually understand each other. As regards 
consciousness surviving the body, please read nderf.org for scientific evidence.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Wed, 8/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 8 October, 2008, 8:00 AM
Anthony, 

I don't consider myself a nihilist, though I can see how nihilists might 
consider me as such. I don't think nihilism has concepts of Zen, it just might 
accept all the negatives of Zen though. Also I don't think there is any 
scientific conclusion that consciousness survives the body at all, just the 
opposite.

Edgar


On Oct 7, 2008, at 6:42 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Hi Edgar,
 
That is why I assume you are a nihilist. Wait a moment. Doctors (non-religious) 
have concluded consciousness survives the body. Though they cannot prove what 
comes after death. That is a scientific conclusion so far.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Tue, 7/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Tuesday, 7 October, 2008, 10:38 PM
Hi Anthony, 

I understand that Tibetans believe that Bardo occurs after death, but I think 
it's an nde instead since I don't believe in 'after death'. As I implied in my 
previous post nde's don't prove consciousness persists after death, only that 
the consciousness (the brain) takes a while to gradually shut down after the 
rest of the body does. Death is not an instantaneous occurrence, it proceeds 
from the outside in towards the center of consciousness where a tiny flame 
lingers for awhile before finally going out.

This was written about by Kazantzakis at the end of 'The Odyssey, A Modern 
Sequel' BTW.

Gosh, I'm almost depressing myself here! :-)

Edgar



On Oct 6, 2008, at 10:51 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Hi Edgar,
 
Are you a materialist or nihilist? I hope you are right. If I come to nothing 
after death. That is perfect. What if the Tibetan Buddhism is right and I go 
through a lot of horrible things in the bardo period. Please note the bardo 
appears after death, while nde occurs when still alive, or half dead. The 
latter only has a glimpse of the other world and then comes back to earth. That 
is why nders mainly have bliss. Few have hell. If you read nde literature, the 
researchers has consensus that consciousness survive the body.
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 7:15 AM
Hi Anthony, 

Just punch old Mahakasyapa in the nose when you meet him. He will disappear 
along with the rest of them. All those Bardo characters are illusion. Read the 
Tibetan Book of the Dead for instructions on what to do after you die. Then be 
prepared for something totally different. In any case the Bardo realm is not 
when you are completely dead, but just during the gradual process of death when 
time slows as the external layers of your body shut down and your consciousness 
gradually retreats towards the center of your brain. After that which may seem 
a long time but is not really very long in external time there is not even 
nothing so all problems will be over.

Anyway glad to see I am cheering you up already!
:-)

Edgar



On Oct 5, 2008, at 6:57 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Edgar,
 
I would like to send you an email after I die, but Mahakasyapa says it is 
unlikely you will receive one. If I am enjoying life in heaven, I would not 
care about the earth because all things there are dirty, not worth even 
thinking about. If I am suffering in hell, I will not be capable of sending a 
message, because the devil who tortures me will not allow it. In either case, 
you will be receive an email. Sorry.
 
Regards,
Anthony

--- On Mon, 6/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 6:45 AM
Anthony, 

I wouldn't worry about suffering after death. Just let go of worry suffering 
right now. In the very unlikely event you find you are still suffering after 
death then send me another email....
:-)

Edgar



On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:



Hi Edgar,
 
I can only appreciate and agree. As a zen master says, "an imaginery pain is 
more painful than a real one". But just in case, can we do something, less than 
becoming a Buddha, to avoid suffering after death? Or should we just ignore it 
as a foolish idea?
 
regards,
Anthony

--- On Sun, 5/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] . .net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Come back to "Aging and Zen"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Sunday, 5 October, 2008, 11:06 PM
JM and Anthony, 

If I can add just one more point. Most of Anthony's current 'suffering' seems 
to be from worrying about something which hasn't yet happened and may never 
happen to him. As JM points out, it is certainly not real here now....... This 
suffering from worrying about a nonexistent future simply needs to be let go 
of. Why magnify the very pain of dying you worry about by worrying about it 
when it hasn't even happened and may never happen? That's clinging to the very 
thing you wish to avoid....

Edgar




On Oct 5, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote:


Hi Anthony,

This is an important question.

Bill and Edgar both have stated many times that only the present moment 
is real. A direct experience is the only thing matters. I am not sure 
either of them will continue to post regarding this issue. And I agree 
with them. 

Since you still "want" to know and "believe and hope" there got to be 
more than "just this". Perhaps I can answer in a traditional Chinese 
Buddhist way about end of life.

As you know, when Hui-Neng died, his body did not deteriorate. His body 
is still being preserved on an altar without refrigeration in Canton. 
Can this be interpreted that if any of us practice enough, we can die 
gracefully. Does this help?

My personal experience is, if we continue to meditate, we will 
eventually worry less, ask less questions and witness the fact that the 
present moment is the only thing real.

JM

Anthony Wu wrote:
>
> I would like to come back to Al's profound question. The thread he 
> started is getting long and branching out. Can you simply say 'this is 
> it?' How do you react to pain? A famous zen master Daisetsu Suzuki 
> went through a lot of suffering in his last days. I am scared to think 
> about that. If he cannot avoid suffering, how can I? How about you 
> all? Are you sure you will leave this world peacefully?
> 
> Regards,
> Anthony
>
> --- On *Sat, 4/10/08, Al /<actionheroes@ yahoo.com>/* wrote:
>
> From: Al <actionheroes@ yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Zen] Aging and Zen
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> Date: Saturday, 4 October, 2008, 2:14 AM
>
> As we all get older, and some of us are a lot older, the question for
> me now is this: Does Zen give you everything you want? Are you
> willing
> to die sitting on a cushion just saying "this is it?" No Heaven for
> you? No Nirvana? No nothing? Just worms??
>
>
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