Edgar, Brilliant! How can one argue with that? Everyone may have their own perception of reality. That perception itself is the illusion. I think you have really topped off your arguement. I have to say though, I was preparing a post very similar to this, you just beat me to the punch!
Later, Chris --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Margie (and Bill), > > What nonsense! That experience suggests there is an objective world > (the eggplant) and that the cognitive representation of that world is > illusion. Only if the monk went back again later and it wasn't an > eggplant but a squashed frog and kept changing every time he looked > at then we might conclude there was no objective world. The monk > accepted that the reality of the objective world was the eggplant, > not the squashed frog illusion in his mind. > > My point again is that what is in the mind and what is in the world > is the same thing and that it is only one thing, and that the rules > that govern all that are causal and consistent. That includes the > phenomenon of errors of the senses and cognition that can be > corrected by internal consistency. > > That is true because things are only illusion in the sense that they > are observer dependent views of reality. Reality itself has no > reality independent of any observer. Just as in relativity there is > no absolute motion, only motion relative to an observer. Every event > is an 'experience' or observation by an 'observer' even if it is just > an electron responding to a force. The whole idea of an external > reality independent of observers is a construct of the mind and > represents the cognitive world view of every organism, each of which > is different and dependent on the biological and cognitive structure > of that organism. > > And that view is my own cognitive construct in my own mind which > depends on my cognitive structure. > > So we go round and round and never get to any observer independent > external reality. Therefore everything is illusion, but only in the > sense that it is impossible to identify an objective reality behind > everything independent on any observer's direct experience since no > observer could ever experience it. > > So what is not illusion, at least in my experience, is the illusion - > that is the contents of direct experience in the ground of the > present moment, but known to be illusion since their manifestation > depends on my structure. And even worse, my supposed structure which > determines reality is a construct of its own structure! But at least > in my experience that is consistent and follows causal rules. > > Those are the contents of consciousness. I can however experience > experience more directly when all contents fade away and only pure > consciousness remains, that experience is the reality of the present > moment empty of all, or almost all, content. Or, if I open my eyes, > the perceptual content reappears but is not categorized by the mind. > That categorization, e.g. the separation of the perceptual content > into discrete things which stand in relationships to each other is a > construct of the mind and as such is illusion. But it is a consistent > illusion ruled by causality. > > And since that is all there is, that illusion must be accepted as > reality, but only when recognized to be illusion. > > > > > Edgar > > > On Oct 15, 2008, at 10:45 AM, roloro1557 wrote: > > > There was a monk who specialized in the buddhist precepts, and had > > kept to them all his life. Once when he was walking at night, he > > stepped on something. It made a squishing sound, and he thought he had > > stepped on an egg-bearing frog. This caused him no end of alarm and > > regret, in view of the precept against taking life. When he finally > > went to sleep that night he dreamed that hundreds of frogs came to him > > demanding his life. > > > > The monk was terribly upset, but when morning came he decided to go > > and look, and he found that what he had stepped on was an overripe > > eggplant. At that moment his feelings suddenly stopped, and for the > > first time he realized the meaning of the saying that there is no > > objective world. Then he finally knew how to practice zen. > > > > -------------------------------------- > > FROM: Over the hills and far away. . . > > The way to do is be. Lao Tzu > > OldWomansZenChronicles.blogspot.com > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/