Bill,

Strange, I thought you believed everything was illusion? Now I hear you say there is a whole object world out there which is not illusion which includes eggplants, yet in your second paragraph you say there is no observer to observe the eggplant. How then do you know it exists objectively and is real and can report that to me?

BTW to answer your question I have no concept of self. If I had one it would be an illusion, though a consistent one for sure! :-)

Edgar


On Oct 16, 2008, at 12:53 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Edgar,

I never said the object world (the eggplant) was an illusion. I do say that all cognitive processes, whether they be representations of the world or
not, are illusions.

Below you said 'Reality itself has no reality independent of any observer.' That seems to be a fundamental pillar of your argument. The fallacy of that is that in reality itself there is no observer, no 'something else' that
exists independent of reality and can observe. As soon as there is an
observer (like self), then there is illusion; and any perspective you think you may have of reality as an observer (such as causality) is an illusion.

Is your concept of 'self' real or an illusion?

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 12:59 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Causality, perception, reality, consciousness, etc, etc

Margie (and Bill),

What nonsense! That experience suggests there is an objective world (the eggplant) and that the cognitive representation of that world is illusion.
Only if the monk went back again later and it wasn't an eggplant but a
squashed frog and kept changing every time he looked at then we might
conclude there was no objective world. The monk accepted that the reality of the objective world was the eggplant, not the squashed frog illusion in his
mind.

My point again is that what is in the mind and what is in the world is the same thing and that it is only one thing, and that the rules that govern all that are causal and consistent. That includes the phenomenon of errors of the senses and cognition that can be corrected by internal consistency.

That is true because things are only illusion in the sense that they are
observer dependent views of reality. Reality itself has no reality
independent of any observer. Just as in relativity there is no absolute motion, only motion relative to an observer. Every event is an 'experience' or observation by an 'observer' even if it is just an electron responding to a force. The whole idea of an external reality independent of observers is a
construct of the mind and represents the cognitive world view of every
organism, each of which is different and dependent on the biological and
cognitive structure of that organism.

And that view is my own cognitive construct in my own mind which depends on
my cognitive structure.

So we go round and round and never get to any observer independent external reality. Therefore everything is illusion, but only in the sense that it is impossible to identify an objective reality behind everything independent on any observer's direct experience since no observer could ever experience it.

So what is not illusion, at least in my experience, is the illusion - that is the contents of direct experience in the ground of the present moment, but known to be illusion since their manifestation depends on my structure.
And even worse, my supposed structure which determines reality is a
construct of its own structure! But at least in my experience that is
consistent and follows causal rules.

Those are the contents of consciousness. I can however experience experience
more directly when all contents fade away and only pure consciousness
remains, that experience is the reality of the present moment empty of all,
or almost all, content. Or, if I open my eyes, the perceptual content
reappears but is not categorized by the mind. That categorization, e.g. the separation of the perceptual content into discrete things which stand in
relationships to each other is a construct of the mind and as such is
illusion. But it is a consistent illusion ruled by causality.

And since that is all there is, that illusion must be accepted as reality,
but only when recognized to be illusion.

Edgar




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