Bill,
Strange, I thought you believed everything was illusion? Now I hear
you say there is a whole object world out there which is not illusion
which includes eggplants, yet in your second paragraph you say there
is no observer to observe the eggplant. How then do you know it
exists objectively and is real and can report that to me?
BTW to answer your question I have no concept of self. If I had one
it would be an illusion, though a consistent one for sure! :-)
Edgar
On Oct 16, 2008, at 12:53 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Edgar,
I never said the object world (the eggplant) was an illusion. I do
say that
all cognitive processes, whether they be representations of the
world or
not, are illusions.
Below you said 'Reality itself has no reality independent of any
observer.'
That seems to be a fundamental pillar of your argument. The fallacy
of that
is that in reality itself there is no observer, no 'something else'
that
exists independent of reality and can observe. As soon as there is an
observer (like self), then there is illusion; and any perspective
you think
you may have of reality as an observer (such as causality) is an
illusion.
Is your concept of 'self' real or an illusion?
...Bill!
From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 12:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Zen] Causality, perception, reality, consciousness,
etc, etc
Margie (and Bill),
What nonsense! That experience suggests there is an objective world
(the
eggplant) and that the cognitive representation of that world is
illusion.
Only if the monk went back again later and it wasn't an eggplant but a
squashed frog and kept changing every time he looked at then we might
conclude there was no objective world. The monk accepted that the
reality of
the objective world was the eggplant, not the squashed frog
illusion in his
mind.
My point again is that what is in the mind and what is in the world
is the
same thing and that it is only one thing, and that the rules that
govern all
that are causal and consistent. That includes the phenomenon of
errors of
the senses and cognition that can be corrected by internal
consistency.
That is true because things are only illusion in the sense that
they are
observer dependent views of reality. Reality itself has no reality
independent of any observer. Just as in relativity there is no
absolute
motion, only motion relative to an observer. Every event is an
'experience'
or observation by an 'observer' even if it is just an electron
responding to
a force. The whole idea of an external reality independent of
observers is a
construct of the mind and represents the cognitive world view of every
organism, each of which is different and dependent on the
biological and
cognitive structure of that organism.
And that view is my own cognitive construct in my own mind which
depends on
my cognitive structure.
So we go round and round and never get to any observer independent
external
reality. Therefore everything is illusion, but only in the sense
that it is
impossible to identify an objective reality behind everything
independent on
any observer's direct experience since no observer could ever
experience it.
So what is not illusion, at least in my experience, is the illusion
- that
is the contents of direct experience in the ground of the present
moment,
but known to be illusion since their manifestation depends on my
structure.
And even worse, my supposed structure which determines reality is a
construct of its own structure! But at least in my experience that is
consistent and follows causal rules.
Those are the contents of consciousness. I can however experience
experience
more directly when all contents fade away and only pure consciousness
remains, that experience is the reality of the present moment empty
of all,
or almost all, content. Or, if I open my eyes, the perceptual content
reappears but is not categorized by the mind. That categorization,
e.g. the
separation of the perceptual content into discrete things which
stand in
relationships to each other is a construct of the mind and as such is
illusion. But it is a consistent illusion ruled by causality.
And since that is all there is, that illusion must be accepted as
reality,
but only when recognized to be illusion.
Edgar
