Chris,

Glad to hear we are of one mind!

Best,
Edgar


On Oct 15, 2008, at 3:47 PM, cid830 wrote:

Edgar,

Brilliant! How can one argue with that? Everyone may have their own
perception of reality. That perception itself is the illusion. I
think you have really topped off your arguement. I have to say
though, I was preparing a post very similar to this, you just beat
me to the punch!

Later,
Chris

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Margie (and Bill),
>
> What nonsense! That experience suggests there is an objective
world
> (the eggplant) and that the cognitive representation of that world
is
> illusion. Only if the monk went back again later and it wasn't an
> eggplant but a squashed frog and kept changing every time he
looked
> at then we might conclude there was no objective world. The monk
> accepted that the reality of the objective world was the
eggplant,
> not the squashed frog illusion in his mind.
>
> My point again is that what is in the mind and what is in the
world
> is the same thing and that it is only one thing, and that the
rules
> that govern all that are causal and consistent. That includes the
> phenomenon of errors of the senses and cognition that can be
> corrected by internal consistency.
>
> That is true because things are only illusion in the sense that
they
> are observer dependent views of reality. Reality itself has no
> reality independent of any observer. Just as in relativity there
is
> no absolute motion, only motion relative to an observer. Every
event
> is an 'experience' or observation by an 'observer' even if it is
just
> an electron responding to a force. The whole idea of an external
> reality independent of observers is a construct of the mind and
> represents the cognitive world view of every organism, each of
which
> is different and dependent on the biological and cognitive
structure
> of that organism.
>
> And that view is my own cognitive construct in my own mind which
> depends on my cognitive structure.
>
> So we go round and round and never get to any observer
independent
> external reality. Therefore everything is illusion, but only in
the
> sense that it is impossible to identify an objective reality
behind
> everything independent on any observer's direct experience since
no
> observer could ever experience it.
>
> So what is not illusion, at least in my experience, is the
illusion -
> that is the contents of direct experience in the ground of the
> present moment, but known to be illusion since their
manifestation
> depends on my structure. And even worse, my supposed structure
which
> determines reality is a construct of its own structure! But at
least
> in my experience that is consistent and follows causal rules.
>
> Those are the contents of consciousness. I can however experience
> experience more directly when all contents fade away and only
pure
> consciousness remains, that experience is the reality of the
present
> moment empty of all, or almost all, content. Or, if I open my
eyes,
> the perceptual content reappears but is not categorized by the
mind.
> That categorization, e.g. the separation of the perceptual
content
> into discrete things which stand in relationships to each other is
a
> construct of the mind and as such is illusion. But it is a
consistent
> illusion ruled by causality.
>
> And since that is all there is, that illusion must be accepted as
> reality, but only when recognized to be illusion.
>
>
>
>
> Edgar
>
>
> On Oct 15, 2008, at 10:45 AM, roloro1557 wrote:
>
> > There was a monk who specialized in the buddhist precepts, and
had
> > kept to them all his life. Once when he was walking at night, he
> > stepped on something. It made a squishing sound, and he thought
he had
> > stepped on an egg-bearing frog. This caused him no end of alarm
and
> > regret, in view of the precept against taking life. When he
finally
> > went to sleep that night he dreamed that hundreds of frogs came
to him
> > demanding his life.
> >
> > The monk was terribly upset, but when morning came he decided to
go
> > and look, and he found that what he had stepped on was an
overripe
> > eggplant. At that moment his feelings suddenly stopped, and for
the
> > first time he realized the meaning of the saying that there is no
> > objective world. Then he finally knew how to practice zen.
> >
> > --------------------------------------
> > FROM: Over the hills and far away. . .
> > The way to do is be. Lao Tzu
> > OldWomansZenChronicles.blogspot.com
> >
> >
> >
>




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