JMJM,

I really like 'As Is'.  It might be better than 'Just THIS!' to 
communicate what I'm trying to describe.  As Mayka has recently 
pointed out 'Just THIS!' has the dualistic connotation that there is 
a 'THAT! somewhere.  Of course 'As Is' could also be thought to have 
a dualistic connotation that there is a 'Not As Is', but that's the 
endemic danger of language.  Whenever you open you mouth and spread 
words around there's always the danger someone will come along and 
trip over them.

...Bill!  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> My Dear Bill,
> 
> Since there is no YOU, there is truly no one to pick on.  :-)
> 
> In words, everything that you have said is the same as our 
school.  :-)  
> We use "As Is" instead of "Just This".  "As Is" in Chinese 
is "如來“, 
> which is the name of Buddha.  Every form has its causes to be 
> manifested, therefore, every form is "As Is", meaning complete 
> synchronization.  The difference between zen and Chan, is in the 
> invisible and the unwritten.  We emphasize the importance of the 
energy 
> of "As Is", which zen could mean just on the form.  When we say 
be "As 
> Is", we mean the energy which manifest the form and not the 
transient 
> form.  Only when there is energy, there is life.  And therefore 
there is 
> spirit. 
> 
> I understand fully why you take so much time to answer each post.  
You 
> Do have my deepest respect.  Yet, awakening must come from within 
and 
> quite difficult to be taught. 
> 
> Please practice with chi, you shall enter into a different realm.  
> Everything in this universe is As Is.  There is no maya, if we 
don't 
> think.  No matter what teachers or books say.  Everything we can 
> experience, we must not ignore.  When one's heart is open, he meets 
> Buddha, meaning universal truth. 
> 
> There is nothing to pick or choose.  Everything is As Is. 
> JM
> 
> 
> Bill Smart wrote:
> >
> > JMJM,
> >
> > Thanks for your post. I really never thought you were 'picking on'
> > me. Many times I thought you were challenging my postings which is
> > good for me and good for the forum.
> >
> > I was so in-tune with a couple of your paragraphs below that I 
will
> > copy them here:
> >
> > >Chan/zen is the core of all spirituality, because of
> > > its simplicity. It is just a naked connectivity of one's spirit
> > with
> > > that of the universe. It is just a formless, formality less,
> > wordless
> > > spirituality. There is no robe, no shaving head, no bible. Any
> > > religion can dress it any way they prefer.
> > >
> > > As long as the practitioner is truly and spiritually in touch 
his
> > true
> > > self internally and with that of the universe externally, 
nothing
> > else
> > > matters.
> > >
> > > All labels and descriptions existed for a reason. They are all
> > forms.
> > > Forms are all relative and pertinent to that particular moment
> > only. We
> > > don't have to compare, accept or reject. These actions in the
> > knowledge
> > > domain does not relate to our well being whatsoever.
> > >
> > > In the end, be liberated from all sufferings, be content with 
every
> > > moment is the only thing matters.
> >
> > This is exactly what I've been trying to say.
> >
> > I'll admit that I may be hung up on the rejections of forms. I 
know
> > that forms are relative and transitory as you point out, but when 
I
> > see them posted I feel like I just have to respond: 'That's just a
> > form! That's not important! That's just the finger! That's not the
> > moon...the moon is Just THIS!
> >
> > Thanks again for your post...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%
40yahoogroups.com>, 
> > Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
> > <chan.jmjm@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Bill and Mayka,
> > >
> > > I love the sincerity, honesty and warmth of your post. Instead 
of
> > > picking on Bill, which I am guilty of, I like to share with you 
my
> > > experience of Chan/zen.
> > >
> > > Historically, in most of the written words, Chan is a Chinese
> > invention
> > > regarding BodhiDharma as the founder or the First Patriarch. He
> > came
> > > from the linage of Kasyapa, who were told to teach without words
> > and
> > > formalities. So yes, Chan has Buddhism DNA.
> > >
> > > Gradually however, Taoist influenced Chan. Compare the Shin-Shin
> > Ming
> > > by the Third Patriarch of Chan with that of Tao-Te-Chin by Lao 
Tzu,
> > the
> > > founder of Taoism. They are almost similar in content. In other
> > words,
> > > words are useless. Essence is in the synchronization of spirit, 
or
> > chi
> > > in Chinese.
> > >
> > > Because the Taoist meditative technique is more effective and
> > Buddhist
> > > teaching is more popular, gradually Chan meditative practice 
became
> > more
> > > Taoist, such as QiGong, acupuncture, etc., Yet Chan still 
utilizes
> > > Buddhist terms for describing spiritual experience. Chan is 
quite
> > a hybrid.
> > >
> > > Since the Sixth Patriarch, Chan split into the sudden awakening 
in
> > the
> > > south and the gradual awakening in the north. I have a huge
> > linage
> > > book given to me by my Teacher. It listed every patriarch in the
> > linage
> > > with some of the recent records destroyed by the communist.
> > Northern
> > > Chan was passed to Japan and pronounced zen about 700 years 
later.
> > >
> > > Because its 2,000 year history, there are variation in the
> > linages.
> > > Some are more Buddhist and some are more Taoist and some are
> > neutral.
> > > The essence and bulk of Chan, however, are actually quite well
> > > maintained in the at-home practices. Through out Chinese 
history,
> > most
> > > scholars, court officials practices Chan. Because they are the
> > most
> > > suitable candidates.
> > >
> > > I agree with Bill, Chan/zen is the core of all spirituality,
> > because of
> > > its simplicity. It is just a naked connectivity of one's spirit
> > with
> > > that of the universe. It is just a formless, formality less,
> > wordless
> > > spirituality. There is no robe, no shaving head, no bible. Any
> > > religion can dress it any way they prefer.
> > >
> > > As long as the practitioner is truly and spiritually in touch 
his
> > true
> > > self internally and with that of the universe externally, 
nothing
> > else
> > > matters.
> > >
> > > All labels and descriptions existed for a reason. They are all
> > forms.
> > > Forms are all relative and pertinent to that particular moment
> > only. We
> > > don't have to compare, accept or reject. These actions in the
> > knowledge
> > > domain does not relate to our well being whatsoever.
> > >
> > > In the end, be liberated from all sufferings, be content with 
every
> > > moment is the only thing matters.
> > >
> > > A bow to all,
> > > JM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bill Smart wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mayka,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for your very candid and profound post. I appreciate
> > your
> > > > sharing with the forum your admiration for Thich Nhat Hanh. 
You
> > are
> > > > representing him and his teachings very, very well.
> > > >
> > > > Please remember that I don't get your posts in my email, and I
> > don't
> > > > always check the website. So, if you have a post you want to
> > direct
> > > > specifically to me or to assure my awareness of the post, 
please
> > > > email it to me directly as you have in the past.
> > > >
> > > > My comments are embedded in your post below:
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Zen_Forum%
> > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > "Mayka" <flordeloto@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill;
> > > > >
> > > > > I have no idea if Thich Nhat Hanh is a self proclaimed 
Buddhist
> > or
> > > > > not. Knowing him a little bit I can not see him doing any
> > > > > proclamation about anything for he's a very wise, sweet, 
humble
> > > > > profoundly peaceful man. I know about him that he has turn 
round
> > > > the
> > > > > dharma wheel and created a new way slightly different way
> > tradition
> > > > > from the tradition he comes from. This is natural, the 
dharma is
> > > > > something alive which comes first from guiding books and
> > education
> > > > > and becames through daily direct experience practice a 
living
> > > > dharma.
> > > > > I can say for sure about him that whatever he teaches is
> > something
> > > > > that he has experienced first by himself. He won't ever talk
> > about
> > > > > something that he has not experienced first. In fact one 
amongst
> > > > his
> > > > > multi remarkable skills is to reduce to the minimum the use 
of
> > > > words
> > > > > that can create distraction in the mind and using words 
that are
> > > > very
> > > > > simple but a smack to the intelectual mind, individualism 
and
> > ego.
> > > > A
> > > > > person who is looking for sophisticated discourses and candy
> > words
> > > > > would find Thic Nhat Hanh tedious and boring. Or on the 
other
> > > > hand,
> > > > > a perosn who can also be intelectual but has reached to
> > conclusion
> > > > > that intelectuality can be a boundary when this is not used 
in
> > the
> > > > > appropiate way, then that person, if receptive enough, would
> > find
> > > > > Thich Nhat Hanh a very enlightened person.
> > > > >
> > > > > My direct experience about him is that he is a living 
Buddha. I
> > > > can
> > > > > sense, touch and see that in all his body language, his 
living
> > > > > dharma, his energy, in each action he does.... When he pass 
on
> > his
> > > > > dharma he doesn't pass on just words but also pass on his 
direct
> > > > > experience about it!. So the words become like something 
very
> > > > lively
> > > > > and real in him. He never talks about something that he has 
not
> > > > > experiencing first by himself.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you again for your vivid description of Thich Nhat Hanh 
and
> > > > your impression of him. He is honored to have you as a 
student.
> > > >
> > > > One of the things you've said above rings especially true for 
this
> > > > forum: living dharma cannot be expressed by words alone -
> > especially
> > > > in only written text. It's only from face-to-face contact with
> > some
> > > > as you describe that you can fully appreciate their total
> > absorption
> > > > in the dharma.
> > > >
> > > > > The tradition he teaches I'm not sure but I'm under the
> > impresion
> > > > > that has its roots in Mahayana Buddhism.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Zen Buddhism does have it's roots in Mahayana Buddhism. Some
> > beleive
> > > > Zen is a type of Mahayana Buddhism, and some beleive Zen is 
the
> > > > evolution (culmination) of Mahayana Buddhim and is a branch 
of its
> > > > own. I assum Thich Nhat Hanh being Vietnamese would have 
grown up
> > > > under the influence of Theravada Buddhism, but anyway 
Theravada is
> > > > not mutually exclusive from Mahayana Buddhsim.
> > > >
> > > > As you and I both know and have said repeatedly, none of these
> > names
> > > > or terms are really important. I usually only bring these up 
in
> > > > response to someone else's post referring to some specific 
type of
> > > > Buddhism. I'm not really overly concerned with Buddhism. All 
you
> > > > Buddhists can give it what ever names, and divide it up into
> > whatever
> > > > categories you want.
> > > >
> > > > > I have never hear before zen without the influence of 
buddhism
> > or
> > > > > having as buddhism in its root. Interesting also the 
simplicity
> > you
> > > > > seem to follow your own practice.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I know what you say is true. Most people (99.9%?) inextricably
> > > > assocaiate zen and Buddhism. Some think it is just one of the 
many
> > > > branches of Buddhism. Some, like the Vispassana Buddhists 
here in
> > > > Thailand, think Zen is not a part of Buddhism at all - more 
like a
> > > > cult, a derranged and impure psuedo-Buddhism. Some think of 
Zen as
> > > > the culmination of all Buddhism - the most pure form.
> > > >
> > > > I think of zen as pre-dating Buddhism, Hinduism, Judiasm,
> > > > Christianity and all other religions. I think of zen as the 
core
> > of
> > > > most other religions, and these other religions, including
> > Buddhism,
> > > > are zen with a lot of extra crap stuck all over it. In a lot 
of
> > the
> > > > religions the extra crap is so thick that the zen core is 
totally
> > > > obsucured. I do think that in Zen Buddhism, even with all the 
crap
> > > > attached, at least the zen core is recognizable and 
accessible.
> > > >
> > > > >I like from it [Bill's zen practice] how direct is and
> > > > > its simplicity. I also like from it how open is to 
criticism,
> > and
> > > > > the fact that one can talk about positve things and negative
> > > > things
> > > > > happening to one in a very open way. In constrast to the
> > profound
> > > > > wisdom from Thich Nhat Hanh I have always found difficult to
> > relate
> > > > > myself in the non monastic sanghas due to its kind of 
Disneyland
> > > > way
> > > > > of doing. I certainly share with you that as a practicioner 
I
> > don't
> > > > > like to wave but to deal with what it comes as it comes 
alone.
> > > > > Though, I do lack of the mental stability over my emotions 
and
> > > > > solidity you seem to have.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I also feel a close connection with you, even though we often
> > > > disagree, or at least seem to disagree. I respect your 
perspective
> > > > and enjoy your posts.
> > > >
> > > > > You say that you practice from the perspective "Just This".
> > > > But "Just
> > > > > This" can not exist without "Just That".
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your statement above is actually true. As soon as you 
say 'this',
> > > > you imply there is a 'that'. This is a good example of 
dualistic
> > > > thinking, but something that is all but impossible to extract 
from
> > > > our language. Language ASSUMES and is based on dualism. This 
is
> > why
> > > > zen masters often refrain from giving language-based answers 
to
> > > > questions like 'What is Buddha Nature?'. As soon as you open 
your
> > > > mouth to speak, you're lost. So what do they do?
> > > >
> > > > Sometimes they do use language, but in such a non-ordinary way
> > that
> > > > the listener cannot take their reponose literaly. Examples of
> > these
> > > > are 'mu', or 'the cypress tree in the garden', or 'dried shit 
on a
> > > > stick'. Sometimes they just yell something that is not a word 
at
> > > > all, like 'Katz!' or 'Wah!'. Since these are not words they 
cannot
> > > > be misunderstood. Sometimes they don't speak but just slap the
> > > > floor, or turn around and walk away. They do avoid using 
ordinary
> > > > langauage if at all possible.
> > > >
> > > > If you and I were face-to-face and your were to ask me about
> > Buddha
> > > > Nature I would not say 'Just THIS!'. I would demostrate Buddha
> > > > Nature. The best way I figured out how to do this in writing 
like
> > on
> > > > this forum is to type Just THIS!
> > > >
> > > > > zen or buddhism are not bigger or smaller. They may be 
different
> > > > > ways in which the dharma is transmitted and nothing else.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > When I say zen is smaller than Buddhism, I mean zen is the 
core
> > and
> > > > Buddhism (or Hinduism or Christianity) is the packaging. Like 
zen
> > is
> > > > the marrow and Buddhsim is the bone which contains but hides 
the
> > > > marrow, or maybe even Buddhism is the entire body. It's hard 
to
> > get
> > > > to the marrow if you have to hack through the body and the 
bone.
> > > >
> > > > > I'm truly happy to see you active in the list. Sorry if we 
can't
> > > > > help oneselves by letting you lurking. I suppose we all 
miss you
> > > > > very much. The zen forum is not the same without you, JM, 
Mike,
> > > > > Edgar....
> > > > >
> > > > > A respectuos bow to you
> > > > > Mayka
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > El gusto es mio...
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>



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