Bill,
 
It is OK to pick on me, and thank you for your liking. However, you defeat your 
own words. You say zen is no guide, but you sit zen daily and don't do a sex 
ritual (I hope), so that is already a guide. No direction? You think zen is 
'just this', and don't worship the Pope. That is a direction.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 16/9/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 16 September, 2010, 10:33 AM


  



Anthony,

I know you must think I pick on you. If it seems so it's only because I like 
you.

Referring to your post below I appreciate the thoughts, but they are misplaced.

I don't use zen as a guide. It's just an expression of Buddha Nature. And as 
such there is no 'right direction. In the first place there is no direction 
because there is nowhere to go - only Here!; and in the second place even if 
there was a direction there would be no 'right' or 'wrong' way - only This!

Affectionately...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:17 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions

Bill,

Whatever you call zen, theory or otherwise, it can guide you, I hope, in the 
right direction.

Anthony

--- On Wed, 15/9/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 15 September, 2010, 10:05 AM

Anthony,

There may not be any theories better than karma. But just as zen (in my 
opinion) is not mystical, zen is also not theoretical. Zen is apparent, clear, 
manifest, evident and perspicuous. Zen is definite, actual and real. Zen is 
Just THIS!

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 5:26 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions

Bill,

The difference between Karma and Santa Claus is that the former is yourself, 
while the latter, 'something else'. 

I can understand why you regard karma as a moot process. That is part of a 
chaotic universe I won't buy. As much as Dalai Lama is ready to give up parts 
of Buddhism not in conformity with science, I am prepared to accept anything 
better than the karma theory.

Anthony

--- On Tue, 14/9/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 14 September, 2010, 6:00 PM

Anthony,

My comment about karma was directed to those who consider karma when (or 
before) acting, altering their actions to avoid 'bad' karma or to accumulate 
'good' karma. In that way karma is just another concept that rewards good 
actions and punishes bad actions. Like Heaven and Hell. Like Santa Claus.

One who takes complete responsibility for their actions does so without hope of 
reward or fear of punishment. Karma, even if it does exist, is a moot process. 

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 5:46 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions

Bill,

Karma is not 'something else' to take responsibility for your life. It asks you 
to take your own responsibility, without shifting it to 'something else'. You 
are thinking it in the way without knowing it.

Anthony

--- On Mon, 13/9/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 13 September, 2010, 10:59 AM

Anthony,

What you say below about Christianity and Buddhism is true, or at least my 
understanding of their teachings also.

As I said in an earlier post, I don’t consider zen a sub-set or exclusively 
dependent upon Buddhism. Sin (which requires first repenting and then 
forgiveness) is a feature of Christianity (and other religions). Karma is a 
feature of Buddhism (and other religions). 

The zen I practice is not based on a concept of sin or karma. These I consider 
maya. They are conceptualizations of dualistic concepts. They may be very 
useful in teaching, and in giving people boundaries or rules who want someone 
or something else to take responsibility for their own life, thoughts and 
actions. 

…Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 3:43 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions

Bill,

Look at the following difference:
Christianity asks you to finally unite with God, who can absolve you even if 
you kill or rape, while buddhism insists on independent karma that is created 
by yourself and cannot be changed by others. // Is it superficial?

anthony

--- On Sat, 11/9/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 11 September, 2010, 10:54 AM 

Kirk,

I liked your post below. I do think, in fact BELIEVE, that most of the 
difference we see in the disparate religions are superficial, mainly teaching 
techniques that have been developed to lead you eventually to the same place.

It is likely just my own prejudice or at least my more extensive familiarity, 
but I do think Japanese Soto Zen Buddhism has the least amount of 'fluff' and 
most straight-forward teaching techniques. This is important, because (to 
paraphrase one of your analogies below) once you reach the other shore you need 
to let go of your attachment to the boat. With most religions that is very, 
very hard to do, and in fact actively discouraged.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
novelid...@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 5:51 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Other traditions

Anthony

I think you have the beginnings of something. The Tantric visualization 
approach and guidance along the lines of Llamaism could be seen as a 
counterpart to zazen path of Zen, you are using the outward (contemplation, 
meditation, etc) to reach greater inner clarity and expression . . . You could 
make the case that once a certain station is reached you are zazen, you are 
attention, the pure self, the selflessness of self. 

Once again the Sufis address this over and over again within the context of 
their teaching stories, meditation, action techniques, gatherings, poetry, etc 
-- drinking the wine and going beyond the vessel . . . same thing as gone gone 
to the other shore . . .don't need the boat anymore. 

Kirk
In a message dated 9/10/2010 2:38:13 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
wu...@yahoo.com.sg writes:

Bill,

I am 90% in agreement with you. There are a lot of differences between Tibetan 
Tantra and traditional Buddhism. The most significant is their attitude and 
practice on sex rituals. On the other hand, the Tantra also has a lot of 
colorful and spectacular techniques. If they help some. why not practice them 
whether or not they can be consifered Buddhism

Anthony

--- On Fri, 10/9/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 10 September, 2010, 9:47 PM

DP,

I myself don’t consider Tibetan ‘Buddhism’ actually Buddhist. I should more 
rightfully be classified as ‘Lamaism’ – with maybe some Buddhist terminology. 
It’s chock full of superstitions, gods and spirits and a lot of mysticism (and 
not just ‘chi’), the most well known of which is their belief that the Dalai 
Lama which is their ‘God-King’, and whom they believe is a reincarnation of the 
former Dalai Lama clear back to an actual ‘god’ (of Compassion).

And don’t get me started on the Dalai Lama…Bill! 
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
DP
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 8:49 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Other traditions
I have a strange feeling towards other Buddhist traditions. While I find 
interesting messages in reading about Christianity or even Islam and Judaism 
(Hinduism I find too alien, although I love some of the imagery and mythology), 
I have a sort of block against other Buddhist traditions. I can admire somone 
like the The Dalai Lama, but I find Tibetan Buddhism too esoteric. I have had a 
few negative experiences on chat boards with other Buddhists in Theravada and 
Vajranaya traditions, where they even denigrated Zen. Does anyone else find 
that other Buddhist traditions seem odder to them than traditions outside 
Buddhism?

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