Bill, The difference between Karma and Santa Claus is that the former is yourself, while the latter, 'something else'. I can understand why you regard karma as a moot process. That is part of a chaotic universe I won't buy. As much as Dalai Lama is ready to give up parts of Buddhism not in conformity with science, I am prepared to accept anything better than the karma theory. Anthony
--- On Tue, 14/9/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 14 September, 2010, 6:00 PM Anthony, My comment about karma was directed to those who consider karma when (or before) acting, altering their actions to avoid 'bad' karma or to accumulate 'good' karma. In that way karma is just another concept that rewards good actions and punishes bad actions. Like Heaven and Hell. Like Santa Claus. One who takes complete responsibility for their actions does so without hope of reward or fear of punishment. Karma, even if it does exist, is a moot process. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 5:46 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions Bill, Karma is not 'something else' to take responsibility for your life. It asks you to take your own responsibility, without shifting it to 'something else'. You are thinking it in the way without knowing it. Anthony --- On Mon, 13/9/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 13 September, 2010, 10:59 AM Anthony, What you say below about Christianity and Buddhism is true, or at least my understanding of their teachings also. As I said in an earlier post, I don’t consider zen a sub-set or exclusively dependent upon Buddhism. Sin (which requires first repenting and then forgiveness) is a feature of Christianity (and other religions). Karma is a feature of Buddhism (and other religions). The zen I practice is not based on a concept of sin or karma. These I consider maya. They are conceptualizations of dualistic concepts. They may be very useful in teaching, and in giving people boundaries or rules who want someone or something else to take responsibility for their own life, thoughts and actions. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Wu Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 3:43 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions Bill, Look at the following difference: Christianity asks you to finally unite with God, who can absolve you even if you kill or rape, while buddhism insists on independent karma that is created by yourself and cannot be changed by others. // Is it superficial? anthony --- On Sat, 11/9/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, 11 September, 2010, 10:54 AM Kirk, I liked your post below. I do think, in fact BELIEVE, that most of the difference we see in the disparate religions are superficial, mainly teaching techniques that have been developed to lead you eventually to the same place. It is likely just my own prejudice or at least my more extensive familiarity, but I do think Japanese Soto Zen Buddhism has the least amount of 'fluff' and most straight-forward teaching techniques. This is important, because (to paraphrase one of your analogies below) once you reach the other shore you need to let go of your attachment to the boat. With most religions that is very, very hard to do, and in fact actively discouraged. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of novelid...@aol.com Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 5:51 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Other traditions Anthony I think you have the beginnings of something. The Tantric visualization approach and guidance along the lines of Llamaism could be seen as a counterpart to zazen path of Zen, you are using the outward (contemplation, meditation, etc) to reach greater inner clarity and expression . . . You could make the case that once a certain station is reached you are zazen, you are attention, the pure self, the selflessness of self. Once again the Sufis address this over and over again within the context of their teaching stories, meditation, action techniques, gatherings, poetry, etc -- drinking the wine and going beyond the vessel . . . same thing as gone gone to the other shore . . .don't need the boat anymore. Kirk In a message dated 9/10/2010 2:38:13 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, wu...@yahoo.com.sg writes: Bill, I am 90% in agreement with you. There are a lot of differences between Tibetan Tantra and traditional Buddhism. The most significant is their attitude and practice on sex rituals. On the other hand, the Tantra also has a lot of colorful and spectacular techniques. If they help some. why not practice them whether or not they can be consifered Buddhism Anthony --- On Fri, 10/9/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> Subject: RE: [Zen] Other traditions To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 10 September, 2010, 9:47 PM DP, I myself don’t consider Tibetan ‘Buddhism’ actually Buddhist. I should more rightfully be classified as ‘Lamaism’ – with maybe some Buddhist terminology. It’s chock full of superstitions, gods and spirits and a lot of mysticism (and not just ‘chi’), the most well known of which is their belief that the Dalai Lama which is their ‘God-King’, and whom they believe is a reincarnation of the former Dalai Lama clear back to an actual ‘god’ (of Compassion). And don’t get me started on the Dalai Lama…Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DP Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 8:49 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Other traditions I have a strange feeling towards other Buddhist traditions. While I find interesting messages in reading about Christianity or even Islam and Judaism (Hinduism I find too alien, although I love some of the imagery and mythology), I have a sort of block against other Buddhist traditions. I can admire somone like the The Dalai Lama, but I find Tibetan Buddhism too esoteric. I have had a few negative experiences on chat boards with other Buddhists in Theravada and Vajranaya traditions, where they even denigrated Zen. Does anyone else find that other Buddhist traditions seem odder to them than traditions outside Buddhism? __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5439 (20100910) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5439 (20100910) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5441 (20100910) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5441 (20100910) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5445 (20100912) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5445 (20100912) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5445 (20100912) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5445 (20100912) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5448 (20100913) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5448 (20100913) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5448 (20100913) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
