Bill,
 
I got them on the website.
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 1/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 1 November, 2010, 11:15 AM


  



Anthony,

I noticed that some posts are being repeated – and not just mine. I hadn’t 
noticed them being repeated 6 times, but I believe you.

How do you get these posts? Do you get them sent to you in your email, or do 
you go to the website?

I’ll look into it.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 5:00 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Bill,

This post of yours have been repeated at least six times. At the rate of 10c 
per piece, you are getting 60c or Baht 18. How much flight lice can you get for 
that?

Anthony

--- On Sun, 31/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 12:38 PM

Siska,

I think there is a distinct difference between doing and feeling something and 
only reading about it.

There is absolutely the experience of reading. That’s yours, and that might 
invoke a similar experience to what the writer is writing about. That’s the 
goal of good writing – to communicate experience (or thoughts). 

You can read all you want about what swimming is like, but until you actually 
jump into deep water you really don’t ‘know’ swimming. Read ‘know’ in the prior 
sentence as ‘experience’. 

Experience is what’s important, not just ‘knowing’. Knowing or understanding is 
an intellectual activity. Experience is living. Intellectual activities are 
part of living also, but only a very small insignificant piece – in my opinion. 
Most people put way too much importance on them and as a result are attached to 
them. 

…Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 9:56 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question


Hi Bill,

> I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
> else's

In essence, aren't they the same?

siska
________________________________________
From: <billsm...@hhs1963.org> 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:12:29 +0700
To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Questions, questions, question


Siska,

In a previous post you wrote:

[Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.

You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own 
experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the 
experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or 
are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's 
experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's 
experience.

I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone 
else's.

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on 
people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those 
who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience 
itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, 
it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by 
different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, 
it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my 
opinion.
Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as 
if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet 
any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description 
about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously 
mentioned.. . 

Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't 
distinguish body and mind in the awareness. 
Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and 
the mind in the awareness?. 

Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body 
accordingly and vice versa. 
Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also 
happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body.

Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. 
Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share 
and discuss with others so much.
Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, 
discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment 
from each others. 

--- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska <siska_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Siska <siska_...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 7:24

Hi Mayka,

> For instance a frequent experience I keep coming across in Internet is the 
> number of people who do zen readings and afterwards they go to websites 
> pretending that they know a lot about zen without actually having any direct 
> experience about the subject. 
I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people 
who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are 
attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a 
direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just 
memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people 
who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to 
attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion.

> I hear about Krishnamurti but never met any of his followers before. How long 
> were you involved in that?. 

I started seven years ago. We are not Krishnamurti's followers though. It 
happens that the Buddhist vipassana meditation is being practised with his 
approach. It's kind of mixed up. I don't really read his books either. The 
retreats are conducted in a Buddhist monasteries, but there is a good mix of 
people from various religions there, mostly Catholics and Moslems. Especially 
in the beginning, I found it really interesting that similar experience are 
being described differently due to this different backgrounds.

>"To be aware about all what is going on in the body and the mind plus 
>surroundings". which is what sometimes in theory/ Sometimes in action I base 
>myself practise. In addition. When I'm very full of everything all what I do 
>it's simply to sit down and breathe. 

Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't 
distinguish body and mind in the awareness. I noticed that whenever something 
occurs in my mind, it affects my body accordingly and vice versa. So, these two 
are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. Perhaps it doesn't work 
that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share and discuss with others 
so much.

> Still think that if one can find the appropriate Teacher, Guide or Someone 
> experienced in the practise it will benefit and shorten the fatigue, going in 
> circles and time. There are many things about us that we can't face by 
> oneselves alone. And a Teacher is great for that purpose. There is also the 
> problem of the ego which can be at time extremely difficult to be detected if 
> one doesn't have much experience in the practise. A zen teacher doesn't do 
> the job for one. A zen teacher only gives instructions for one start to 
> uncover all the layers there....

Agree, a teacher would be nice to have. From where I stand, it is still not a 
"must have", but then again, I'm open to the difference, if perhaps this is the 
way it is in Zen.

> Nice talking to you
Feeling's mutual :-)

siska

--- On Thu, 28/10/10, Maria Lopez <flordel...@btinternet.com> wrote:

From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 21:12

Siska:

Reading books is educative. Nothing wrong about reading. A different matter is 
how a reading is interpreted, or taking the words from that book as a kind of 
ultimate truth and things like that. For instance a frequent experience I keep 
coming across in Internet is the number of people who do zen readings and 
afterwards they go to websites pretending that they know a lot about zen 
without actually having any direct experience about the subject. I have 
witnessed at times that when a real practitioner has call the attention of that 
kind of people with the only intention of helping them, guiding them to the 
real thing, these sort of no real practitioners usually get upset and react as 
very offended. So the reading in this case was useless as it added more new 
notions into that person mind. Everything in life is there available to all of 
us, it depends upon us how do we use it. That is our choice. 

I hear about Krishnamurti but never met any of his followers before. How long 
were you involved in that?. What was your meditative experience under the 
subject you mention : "The meditation instruction is only to be aware of what 
is at each moment"?. This sound alike but a little bit more complete as: "To be 
aware about all what is going on in the body and the mind plus surroundings". 
which is what sometimes in theory/ Sometimes in action I base myself practise. 
In addition. When I'm very full of everything all what I do it's simply to sit 
down and breathe. 

Still think that if one can find the appropriate Teacher, Guide or Someone 
experienced in the practise it will benefit and shorten the fatigue, going in 
circles and time. There are many things about us that we can't face by 
oneselves alone. And a Teacher is great for that purpose. There is also the 
problem of the ego which can be at time extremely difficult to be detected if 
one doesn't have much experience in the practise. A zen teacher doesn't do the 
job for one. A zen teacher only gives instructions for one start to uncover all 
the layers there....

Nice talking to you
Mayka

-- On Thu, 28/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 5:49

Mayka,

What you said below made me realised that I've brushed aside anything that has 
got to do with rituals and traditions while I'm reading below two books. 
Perhaps not a wise thing to do?

I first came to know meditation through the Mahasi tradition. Later I attended 
retreats that are based on Buddhist vipassana meditation with J.Krishnamurti's 
approach (that's how they describe the approach). There are controversies on 
this approach, but I find it quite suitable for me. The meditation instruction 
is only to be aware of what is at each moment, which can be anything, but I 
find it mostly to be merely thoughts (perhaps what this forum refers to as 
"illusions").

When I learned that in Zen, the advice is also to just sit. This sounds very 
similar to me. 

This Vipassana approach, as it is with Krishnamurti, 'refuses' teacher-student 
relationship so that we don't attach to anything that any teacher says or tells 
us. Instead, we are to see with ourselves. As the book says, Zen mind is a 
beginner's mind. Anything pre-conceived hinders our practice. I just realised 
I'm that much conditioned to this that I thought there shouldn't be any teacher 
needed in Zen either :-) 

thanks for this discussions!

> If you like to waste your time then no bother to look for a Teacher because a 
> Teacher won't let you to waste it. 

Or maybe I'd look for one who'd tell me to waste it ;-)

siska
________________________________________
From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@btinternet.com> 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:01:38 +0100 (BST)
To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Siska:

I don't know if having a Teacher is compulsory but I can tell you that is 
certainly strongly adviced by experienced zen practitioners. The writers of the 
books you mentioned in previous posting both were instructed by Teachers. There 
is also the alternative of sitting down with a group of people and having some 
support into your practice. Do you do a sitting down?

If you like to waste your time then no bother to look for a Teacher because a 
Teacher won't let you to waste it. 

Mayka

--- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 16:20

Hi Mayka,

Thanks!

Is it compulsory to train with a teacher? It's hard to find any here.

As for now, I can't find any better way to waste my time than being here. After 
all, what do I do with it if not to waste? ;-)

siska 

________________________________________
From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@btinternet.com> 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:04:35 +0100 (BST)
To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

Welcome to the zen forum Siska.

Lay back and enjoy the ride. Unluckily you can find the answer of your 
questioning in a Internet forum. Sit down and shut up is advisable towards 
having a glimpse to the direct experience of Buddha nature. Google and Ed are 
Internet leaflets of commercial zen information but not the place itself. 
Searching for a reliable Teacher, with a direct experience of what he may be 
teaching about (Walking the talk), and working with him instructions is the 
wises action you could do if you are honestly interested in zen. Differently 
here in the forum you'll be having a great entertainment but not much of real 
zen. In a few words, you are wasting your time. But enjoy the ride and tides 
with us anyway!

Hope this helps a little bit.
Mayka

--- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 2:05

Hello Ed,

Thanks for the welcome :)

I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are 
discussing about "buddha nature", "zen", "the Law" and all that. The way I 
understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms 
anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be.

I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut Up 
(or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. 
Looking forward to learning more from this forum.

Wow, seventeen trillion events......

siska
________________________________________
From: "ED" <seacrofter...@yahoo.com> 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:44:50 -0000
To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question

siska,
Welcome to the Zen Forum.
If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) 
enlightened.
The Buddha might say: "Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of 
that interchange."
I look forward to your joining in the conversations.
--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:
Hi All,

I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list.

siska 

Mayka, 
I'm sorry that you feel that way. 
--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez <flordel...@...> wrote:
>
> ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE!!!! GET 
> LOST. DO YOUÂ GET IT NOW????...GOSH!!!

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