Kristy, I think you are saying you are an agnostic. Many are the same. Deep in my heart, I hold the same point of view. However, in the absence of a better theory, I believe karma is the best belief. Can you propose a better alternative? Anthony
--- On Mon, 22/11/10, Kristy McClain <healthypl...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Kristy McClain <healthypl...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 5:42 AM Anthony, I don't think you are wrong at all about this. I'm not a Catholic, but the Pope has a lot more to answer for , in addition to what you point out. I think my point to Ed was that all of these beliefs and scriptures are the products of mortal mankind. I understand that religious leaders believe they are the direct words of God, but that does not make that true. It also does not negate the possibility that there is a God. I don't know that I believe there is, but I also don't know that there isn't. I'd like to believe that God is compassion for all things. Perhaps God is reflected in how we treat each other. I would like to think that a belief like that would bring out the best we each can offer, though I know that isn't always so. Clearly, history points that out. I think I'm saying that its time to take responsibility for our own behavior, individually and collectively, in order to solve problems and prevent repeating the miseries of the past. Using God as a shield or a sword in such events is the fault of mankind, but not necessarily the fault of God. Kristy --- On Sun, 11/21/10, Anthony Wu <wu...@yahoo.com.sg> wrote: From: Anthony Wu <wu...@yahoo.com.sg> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, November 21, 2010, 2:09 PM Kristy, The problem is the Pope still thinks the Old Testament, which is full of horrifying stories, is part of Christianity. If I am wrong, please point it out. Anthony --- On Sun, 21/11/10, Kristy McClain <healthypl...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Kristy McClain <healthypl...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 21 November, 2010, 10:20 AM Ed, I certainly respect your position on this, but after looking at the link you gave, I have a queston... If the Bible and other events were recorded by mortal humans, how can you be certain these accounts are the divine intentions of God? Could they reflect mankind trying to understand the world around them, and assert their perceptions are inspired by God? Perhaps they were wrong. Perhaps they were right. Perhaps they made a mistake. Perhaps compassion arises from such uncertainties? (I'm behind on mail, but thank you, Anthony, for your note. I'll reply tomorrow. At this time, I am testing a pumkin cheesecake recipe). Kristy --- On Sat, 11/20/10, ED <seacrofter...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: ED <seacrofter...@yahoo.com> Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, November 20, 2010, 5:50 AM Bill and All, Be nice to your partner, or else you will be at the receiving end of a this-worldly unspiritual effect. Tell the truth to your boss about how he can improve his management style and you will experience another kind of this-worldly unspiritual effect. Don't jump when the powerful say jump, and the effects will be not at all illusory. Karma is as non-illusory or as illusory as the justice-inflicting Abrahamic God-conception is non-illusory or illusory. I am allergic to the habit of mixing the impersonal with the personal. Nevertheless, here we go: I am an agnostic with respect to karma extended over putative life-times. I am an agnostic with respect to all supranatural phenomena I have not experienced or verified. As an act of faith, I am a non-believer in the Abrahamic God - and here's 'why': http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htm --ED. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, <billsm...@...> wrote: > > As most of you already know I believe karma as understood of a kind of 'spiritual cause-and-effect' is illusory - both the short- and long-term version. > I do, however, think Chris' interpretation below that identifies karma as part of the action (instead of a result of the action) has a lot of merit. If I were to believe in karma it would be something along these lines. ...Bill! >> Chris: Is that what people mean by karma? I was taught that "karma" means >> "action," and that the Buddha just meant that to be mean is an unpleasant state to be in; the effect and the cause are indivisible, the very blindness that pushes the brain towards being mean makes the heat of anger burn the brain a bit. When one is free enough from ego/blindness, the heat of anger has space in which to dissapate harmlessly, and the more pleasant baseline state of our brain is re-established. Anthony, One problem I have with karma is that it assumes some pre-determination to our life experience. In my view, most of the problems in society around the globe stem from theology differences. Let me ask you: What is so fearful about a belief that once our mortal body dies, we are just gone? This fear of death has created so many myths and fantasies to explain away death, by soothing our ego, so we can believe our "soul" energy is transformed to some other type of existence. This fear of God /Satan / or karmic retribution only encourages a state of fear within, and a judgement of others by comparison. What is your worst-possible fear once you die? Once you are aware of the answer, deal with that realization. It is my feeling that these belief structures only reinforce the negativity that keeps us separate from self-awareness and compassion, then extended to those around us, and then social orders beyond. I don't know for certain whether karma exists or not, but I am comfident that there is not a person living today who can explain it accurately. I see it as a means to help one stay in fear, rather than compassion. This idea of some heavenly or spirit retribution for all your mistakes. Why wake up in the morning and get out of bed? Its all just a means to somehow "earn" the next trip back? So what if I end up a pidgeon or an ant? So what if I simply return to the dust of the earth? According to Mormons, every one has an afterlife, as a human being, in one of three levels of heaven. Your assigned level is dependent on one's behavior and faith in this mortal existence. If you are really good, (and you are male), you will eventually become a God of your own world. So many different belief systems. So much of this is rooted in fear and ego-- our deep need to feel that we matter, somehow. I'm not judging or balking at those who believe in karma. If it works for you, thats fine. But I know it doesn't work quite the way you think it does.. You asked how else to explain some events? Why does everything always need to be rationalized and explained? (And remember I am saying this as a science and social scientist). I remember learning a fundamental Law in a 1A physiology class as a freshman. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed: It is merely transformed. Okay, that can be debited to the karma ledger in a mild sense. But it does not suggest a theology framework. I was raised a Christian, and still go to church at times--like Christmas and Easter. I embrace many buddhist philosophies. I have some very close Jewish friends, and last Thanksgiving, we shared their traditions. I practice zen daily. For me, these practices simply help refine my character and compassion, so that I can focus on doing the right things in this life, rather than the next. Kristy
