Hi, all

Not zen, just meaning

-Beleiving is the confirmation that we do not know. If you know, you do not 
beleive, you *know*
-As my teacher in inorganic chemistry said "we can talk a lot, but no ones 
knows what is over the roof". He is Jesuit. Theology apart of chemistry

Besides, I beleive in reincarnation..
But, who cares? 
Soon or later we will know who is right.
No one is inmortal.
Well, if the solipsim theory is avoided....(you should beleive that things you 
see are real, that is not just a dream...)
Even in maths there are things that by definition are  (well, *are*)

With best wishes

Lluís
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Kristy McClain 
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book


    
        Anthony,

        I don't have, or really need a theory.  I do not believe we had 
previous incarnations. In my heart, I think that when we die, we simply die. 
After that, we exist in the memories of those who knew us when we were alive.

        Perhaps that is my type of "karma". We all have a profound ability to 
shape the lives of others. We help mold future events with our choices, 
decisions and our behavior, while we are alive now.  That is  where history is 
written.   For me, this is where zen practice can guide us.  

        Have a great week....

        Kristy


        --- On Mon, 11/22/10, Anthony Wu <wu...@yahoo.com.sg> wrote:


          From: Anthony Wu <wu...@yahoo.com.sg>
          Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
          To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, November 22, 2010, 12:06 PM


            
                Kristy,

                I think you are saying you are an agnostic. Many are the same. 
Deep in my heart, I hold the same point of view. However, in the absence of a 
better theory, I believe karma is the best belief. Can you propose a better 
alternative?

                Anthony

                --- On Mon, 22/11/10, Kristy McClain <healthypl...@yahoo.com> 
wrote:


                  From: Kristy McClain <healthypl...@yahoo.com>
                  Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
                  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 5:42 AM


                    
                        Anthony,


                        I don't think you are wrong at all  about this.  I'm 
not a Catholic, but the Pope has a lot more to answer for , in addition to what 
you point out.

                        I think my point to Ed was that all of these beliefs 
and scriptures are the products of mortal mankind. I understand that religious 
leaders believe they are the direct words of God, but that does not make that 
true.  It also does not negate the possibility that there is a God.  I don't 
know that I believe there is, but I also don't know that there isn't.  I'd like 
to believe that God is compassion  for all things. Perhaps God is reflected in 
how we treat each other. I would like to think that a belief like that would 
bring out the best  we each can offer, though I know that isn't always so.  
Clearly, history points that out.

                        I think I'm saying that its time to take responsibility 
 for our own  behavior, individually and collectively, in order to solve 
problems and prevent repeating the miseries of the past. Using God as a shield 
or a sword in such events is the fault of mankind, but not necessarily the 
fault of God.

                        Kristy   




                        --- On Sun, 11/21/10, Anthony Wu <wu...@yahoo.com.sg> 
wrote:


                          From: Anthony Wu <wu...@yahoo.com.sg>
                          Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
                          To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Sunday, November 21, 2010, 2:09 PM


                            
                                Kristy,

                                The problem is the Pope still thinks the Old 
Testament, which is full of horrifying stories, is part of Christianity. If I 
am wrong, please point it out.

                                Anthony

                                --- On Sun, 21/11/10, Kristy McClain 
<healthypl...@yahoo.com> wrote:


                                From: Kristy McClain <healthypl...@yahoo.com>
                                Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
                                To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Sunday, 21 November, 2010, 10:20 AM


                                  
                                Ed,

                                I certainly respect your position on this, but 
after looking at the link you gave, I have a queston...

                                If  the Bible and other events were recorded by 
mortal humans, how can you  be certain these accounts are the divine intentions 
of God?  Could they reflect mankind trying to understand the world around them, 
and assert their perceptions are inspired by God?  Perhaps they were wrong.  
Perhaps they were right.  Perhaps they made a mistake.  Perhaps compassion 
arises from such uncertainties?

                                (I'm behind on mail, but thank you,  Anthony, 
for your note. I'll reply tomorrow.  At this time, I am testing a pumkin 
cheesecake recipe).

                                Kristy




                                --- On Sat, 11/20/10, ED 
<seacrofter...@yahoo.com> wrote:


                                From: ED <seacrofter...@yahoo.com>
                                Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
                                To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Saturday, November 20, 2010, 5:50 AM


                                  

                                Bill and All,
                                Be nice to your partner, or else you will be at 
the receiving end of a this-worldly unspiritual effect. Tell the truth to your 
boss about how he can improve his management style and you will experience 
another kind of this-worldly unspiritual effect. Don't jump when the powerful 
say jump, and the effects will be not at all illusory.
                                Karma is as non-illusory or as illusory as the 
justice-inflicting Abrahamic God-conception is non-illusory or illusory.
                                I am allergic to the habit of mixing the 
impersonal with the personal. Nevertheless, here we go: I am an agnostic with 
respect to karma extended over putative life-times. I am an agnostic with 
respect to all supranatural phenomena I have not experienced or verified. As an 
act of faith, I am a non-believer in the Abrahamic God - and here's 'why': 
http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htm
                                --ED.


                                --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, 
<billsm...@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > As most of you already know I believe karma 
as understood of a kind of
                                'spiritual cause-and-effect' is illusory - both 
the short- and long-term
                                version.

                                > I do, however, think Chris' interpretation 
below that identifies karma as part
                                of the action (instead of a result of the 
action) has a lot of merit. If I were
                                to believe in karma it would be something along 
these lines.

                                ...Bill!



                                >> Chris: Is that what people mean by karma? I 
was taught that "karma" means "action,"
                                and that the Buddha just meant that to be mean 
is an unpleasant state to be in;
                                the effect and the cause are indivisible, the 
very blindness that pushes the
                                brain towards being mean makes the heat of 
anger burn the brain a bit. When one
                                is free enough from ego/blindness, the heat of 
anger has space in which to
                                dissapate harmlessly, and the more pleasant 
baseline state of our brain is
                                re-established.



                                Anthony,

                                One problem I have with karma is that it 
assumes some pre-determination to our
                                life experience. In my view, most of the 
problems in society around the globe
                                stem from theology differences. Let me ask you: 
What is so fearful about a
                                belief that once our mortal body dies, we are 
just gone? This fear of death has
                                created so many myths and fantasies to explain 
away death, by soothing our ego,
                                so we can believe our "soul" energy is 
transformed to some other type of
                                existence. This fear of God /Satan / or karmic 
retribution only encourages a
                                state of fear within, and a judgement of others 
by comparison.

                                What is your worst-possible fear once you die? 
Once you are aware of the answer,
                                deal with that realization. It is my feeling 
that these belief structures only
                                reinforce the negativity that keeps us separate 
from self-awareness and
                                compassion, then extended to those around us, 
and then social orders beyond.

                                I don't know for certain whether karma exists 
or not, but I am comfident that
                                there is not a person living today who can 
explain it accurately. I see it as a
                                means to help one stay in fear, rather than 
compassion. This idea of some
                                heavenly or spirit retribution for all your 
mistakes. Why wake up in the
                                morning and get out of bed? Its all just a 
means to somehow "earn" the next
                                trip back? So what if I end up a pidgeon or an 
ant? So what if I simply
                                return to the dust of the earth? According to 
Mormons, every one has an
                                afterlife, as a human being, in one of three 
levels of heaven. Your assigned
                                level is dependent on one's behavior and faith 
in this mortal existence. If you
                                are really good, (and you are male), you will 
eventually become a God of your
                                own world.

                                So many different belief systems.

                                So much of this is rooted in fear and ego-- our 
deep need to feel that we
                                matter, somehow. I'm not judging or balking at 
those who believe in karma. If
                                it works for you, thats fine. But I know it 
doesn't work quite the way you
                                think it does.. You asked how else to explain 
some events? Why does everything
                                always need to be rationalized and explained? 
(And remember I am saying this
                                as a science and social scientist).

                                I remember learning a fundamental Law in a 1A 
physiology class as a freshman.

                                Energy can neither be created nor destroyed: It 
is merely transformed. Okay,
                                that can be debited to the karma ledger in a 
mild sense. But it does not suggest
                                a theology framework.

                                I was raised a Christian, and still go to 
church at times--like Christmas and
                                Easter. I embrace many buddhist philosophies. I 
have some very close Jewish
                                friends, and last Thanksgiving, we shared their 
traditions. I practice zen
                                daily. For me, these practices simply help 
refine my character and compassion,
                                so that I can focus on doing the right things 
in this life, rather than the
                                next.

                                Kristy

                                 

                               

                       

               

       



  

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