Anthony,
 
*chuckles*
 
Good point!   But you see, I don't believe  I will "know" because I will just 
be dead.  I'm comfortable with that. But being "right" has never, ever been 
important to me.
 
Reminds me of the movie, "The Bucket List". Nicholson had no belief in the 
afterlife. When asked, "What if you're wrong"? He replied, "Then I still win".  
They told him it  didn't quite work that way.
 
Back to my grant...k

--- On Mon, 11/22/10, Anthony Wu <wu...@yahoo.com.sg> wrote:


From: Anthony Wu <wu...@yahoo.com.sg>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, November 22, 2010, 5:03 PM


  








Lluis/Kristy,
 
Yes, we will know who are correct when we are done with this life. I hope we 
will follow or wait to follow Bill on his way to heaven before the gate is 
closed.\
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 23/11/10, Lluís Mendieta <lme...@intermail.es> wrote:


From: Lluís Mendieta <lme...@intermail.es>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 6:03 AM


  

 
Hi, all
 
Not zen, just meaning
 
-Beleiving is the confirmation that we do not know. If you know, you do not 
beleive, you *know*
-As my teacher in inorganic chemistry said "we can talk a lot, but no ones 
knows what is over the roof". He is Jesuit. Theology apart of chemistry
 
Besides, I beleive in reincarnation..
But, who cares? 
Soon or later we will know who is right.
No one is inmortal.
Well, if the solipsim theory is avoided....(you should beleive that things you 
see are real, that is not just a dream...)
Even in maths there are things that by definition are  (well, *are*)
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Kristy McClain 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

  






Anthony,
 
I don't have, or really need a theory.  I do not believe we had previous 
incarnations. In my heart, I think that when we die, we simply die. After that, 
we exist in the memories of those who knew us when we were alive.
 
Perhaps that is my type of "karma". We all have a profound ability to shape the 
lives of others. We help mold future events with our choices, decisions and our 
behavior, while we are alive now.  That is  where history is written.   For me, 
this is where zen practice can guide us.  
 
Have a great week....
 
Kristy


--- On Mon, 11/22/10, Anthony Wu <wu...@yahoo.com.sg> wrote:


From: Anthony Wu <wu...@yahoo.com.sg>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, November 22, 2010, 12:06 PM


  






Kristy,
 
I think you are saying you are an agnostic. Many are the same. Deep in my 
heart, I hold the same point of view. However, in the absence of a better 
theory, I believe karma is the best belief. Can you propose a better 
alternative?
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 22/11/10, Kristy McClain <healthypl...@yahoo.com> wrote:


From: Kristy McClain <healthypl...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 5:42 AM


  






Anthony,
 
 
I don't think you are wrong at all  about this.  I'm not a Catholic, but the 
Pope has a lot more to answer for , in addition to what you point out.
 
I think my point to Ed was that all of these beliefs and scriptures are the 
products of mortal mankind. I understand that religious leaders believe they 
are the direct words of God, but that does not make that true.  It also does 
not negate the possibility that there is a God.  I don't know that I believe 
there is, but I also don't know that there isn't.  I'd like to believe that God 
is compassion  for all things. Perhaps God is reflected in how we treat each 
other. I would like to think that a belief like that would bring out the best  
we each can offer, though I know that isn't always so.  Clearly, history points 
that out.
 
I think I'm saying that its time to take responsibility  for our own  behavior, 
individually and collectively, in order to solve problems and prevent repeating 
the miseries of the past. Using God as a shield or a sword in such events is 
the fault of mankind, but not necessarily the fault of God.
 
Kristy   
 
 


--- On Sun, 11/21/10, Anthony Wu <wu...@yahoo.com.sg> wrote:


From: Anthony Wu <wu...@yahoo.com.sg>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, November 21, 2010, 2:09 PM


  






Kristy,
 
The problem is the Pope still thinks the Old Testament, which is full of 
horrifying stories, is part of Christianity. If I am wrong, please point it out.
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 21/11/10, Kristy McClain <healthypl...@yahoo.com> wrote:


From: Kristy McClain <healthypl...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 21 November, 2010, 10:20 AM


  






Ed,
 
I certainly respect your position on this, but after looking at the link you 
gave, I have a queston...
 
If  the Bible and other events were recorded by mortal humans, how can you  be 
certain these accounts are the divine intentions of God?  Could they reflect 
mankind trying to understand the world around them, and assert their 
perceptions are inspired by God?  Perhaps they were wrong.  Perhaps they were 
right.  Perhaps they made a mistake.  Perhaps compassion arises from such 
uncertainties?
 
(I'm behind on mail, but thank you,  Anthony, for your note. I'll reply 
tomorrow.  At this time, I am testing a pumkin cheesecake recipe).
 
Kristy
 
 


--- On Sat, 11/20/10, ED <seacrofter...@yahoo.com> wrote:


From: ED <seacrofter...@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 20, 2010, 5:50 AM


  


 
Bill and All,
Be nice to your partner, or else you will be at the receiving end of a 
this-worldly unspiritual effect. Tell the truth to your boss about how he can 
improve his management style and you will experience another kind of 
this-worldly unspiritual effect. Don't jump when the powerful say jump, and the 
effects will be not at all illusory.
Karma is as non-illusory or as illusory as the justice-inflicting Abrahamic 
God-conception is non-illusory or illusory.
I am allergic to the habit of mixing the impersonal with the personal. 
Nevertheless, here we go: I am an agnostic with respect to karma extended over 
putative life-times. I am an agnostic with respect to all supranatural 
phenomena I have not experienced or verified. As an act of faith, I am a 
non-believer in the Abrahamic God - and here's 'why': 
http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htm
--ED.

 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, <billsm...@...> wrote:
>
> As most of you already know I believe karma as understood of a kind of
'spiritual cause-and-effect' is illusory - both the short- and long-term
version.

> I do, however, think Chris' interpretation below that identifies karma as part
of the action (instead of a result of the action) has a lot of merit. If I were
to believe in karma it would be something along these lines.

...Bill!



>> Chris: Is that what people mean by karma? I was taught that "karma" means 
>> "action,"
and that the Buddha just meant that to be mean is an unpleasant state to be in;
the effect and the cause are indivisible, the very blindness that pushes the
brain towards being mean makes the heat of anger burn the brain a bit. When one
is free enough from ego/blindness, the heat of anger has space in which to
dissapate harmlessly, and the more pleasant baseline state of our brain is
re-established.



Anthony,

One problem I have with karma is that it assumes some pre-determination to our
life experience. In my view, most of the problems in society around the globe
stem from theology differences. Let me ask you: What is so fearful about a
belief that once our mortal body dies, we are just gone? This fear of death has
created so many myths and fantasies to explain away death, by soothing our ego,
so we can believe our "soul" energy is transformed to some other type of
existence. This fear of God /Satan / or karmic retribution only encourages a
state of fear within, and a judgement of others by comparison.

What is your worst-possible fear once you die? Once you are aware of the answer,
deal with that realization. It is my feeling that these belief structures only
reinforce the negativity that keeps us separate from self-awareness and
compassion, then extended to those around us, and then social orders beyond.

I don't know for certain whether karma exists or not, but I am comfident that
there is not a person living today who can explain it accurately. I see it as a
means to help one stay in fear, rather than compassion. This idea of some
heavenly or spirit retribution for all your mistakes. Why wake up in the
morning and get out of bed? Its all just a means to somehow "earn" the next
trip back? So what if I end up a pidgeon or an ant? So what if I simply
return to the dust of the earth? According to Mormons, every one has an
afterlife, as a human being, in one of three levels of heaven. Your assigned
level is dependent on one's behavior and faith in this mortal existence. If you
are really good, (and you are male), you will eventually become a God of your
own world.

So many different belief systems.

So much of this is rooted in fear and ego-- our deep need to feel that we
matter, somehow. I'm not judging or balking at those who believe in karma. If
it works for you, thats fine. But I know it doesn't work quite the way you
think it does.. You asked how else to explain some events? Why does everything
always need to be rationalized and explained? (And remember I am saying this
as a science and social scientist).

I remember learning a fundamental Law in a 1A physiology class as a freshman.

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed: It is merely transformed. Okay,
that can be debited to the karma ledger in a mild sense. But it does not suggest
a theology framework.

I was raised a Christian, and still go to church at times--like Christmas and
Easter. I embrace many buddhist philosophies. I have some very close Jewish
friends, and last Thanksgiving, we shared their traditions. I practice zen
daily. For me, these practices simply help refine my character and compassion,
so that I can focus on doing the right things in this life, rather than the
next.

Kristy















      

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