--- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane <chris@...> wrote:
>
> On Friday, January 14, 2011, Mel <gunnar19632000@...> wrote:
>
> > --- On Fri, 14/1/11, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@...> wrote:
> >
> >
>
>
> > There is more cultural baggage attached with the church, so the times when
> > recommending it seem useful are rarer is the main difference.
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > MEL: Yes. I left behind all the other churches(RC, Baptist, Anglican,
> > Salvation Army, etc) to join the Quakers. However, even the pacifist, most
> > peaceful, quiet, neighborly, and very helpful Quakers couldn't be of any
> > help to me, or my needs. Without the bible or agreement with any/all
> > within it, then there's no church...not even a 1-man church(I know someone
> > in this category, and I just spoke to him the other day...*grin/smiles*)
>
> My church thinks of its system as resting on three legs: reason,
> tradition, and scripture. And the Bible is not thought to be something
> to agree with or disagree with, but to "contain all things necessary
> to salvation.". So one could subscribe to the church in good faith
> merely by assenting that the bits of the Bible that Bill! Has posted
> are enough to free a person from suffering. But really, the emphasis
> is on worship, especially as a group. The creeds are all said with a
> "we" not an "I" so you are not forced to worry about each word, but
> rather rest in a community that is together.
>
>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > For what it is worth, my experience with the church is that most
> > people who practise Christianity for a long time have a lot of
> > non-dualistic elements in their understanding of it.
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > MEL: That's the first time I came across such thinking. Interesting
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > I think that dualistic perspectives wrap around any thing in our lives,
> > because that is what our brains do. and that life keeps on beating us until
> > we notice the non-dual nature of it.
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > MEL: That's a very interesting perspective. It's most interesting that
> > there IS a thought on non-dualism itself within Christendom. I myself had
> > always thought as ED, that dualistic thinking had always been part of
> > Christendom and will always be
>
> There is a modern school of interpretation that ancient Jewish
> religion existed in a very non-dualistic worldview, seeing creation as
> being encompassed within God, and attributing the split between spirit
> and body as coming from the Greek philosophers, and the split being
> done to popularize the new religion in the Hellenistic world.
> Personally I bet there have been jerks and kind people in all
> cultures.
>
> I personally find the teachings of Jesus to be very much steering more
> towards open non-judgmental awareness and loving others, and away from
> moralistic condemnatio and finding great value in letting go of your
> own worries and taking up the chance to work for other people. "love
> one another as I have loved you.". "as you judge others, you will be
> judged." "if some one steals your coat give them your cloak." "let
> them without sin cast the first stone."
>
> But whatever, the Church PR right now is in the hands of fearful extemists.
>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > If one is a Christian, but cannot love neighbors without judging them, I
> > recommend they try zazen :)
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > MEL: That's a bit of a hard call. Most Christians I know who would hear
> > that from me would think
> > that I had lost all my screws in the upstairs department, and their
> > reaction would be something like....
>
> My Maryland sangha was majority people also in a church, so i am used
> to it. But there have always been contemplatives in Christianity.
> Teresa of Avila? Etc. There is some verse in the bible "be still and
> know God." my smiley was to indicate i would only offer such advice if
> it seemed the person in question was looking for some such answer.
>
> >> MEL:....(*BIG LAUGHTER*)...I loved it, thank you!
> >
> > Despite the reference to good and not good?
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > MEL:...*smiles*...I took the above as humor.
>
> It is incidentally a traditional Zen story. I modernized the language
> a bit. The zen master sat up in a tree to meditate. I think zen
> stories are mostly jokes, once you see past the dilemma. Knowing
> yourself, what else can you do but laugh at the question, "why do we
> sit if we are all perfect from the very beginning?".
>
> > To me, there's only activity. Good and bad are relative, but that's just me
>
> Everything is relative, or contextual. But i doubt many humans can
> say good and not good are unimportant. I can say that there is only
> activity only when i am sitting in the woods under a tree. I come
> back to the family or the sangha board of directors, and we keep
> bumping into each other. Perhaps better words are appropriate or
> skillful, but i think people wrap lots of judgmental attitudes into
> those words also; i think the tricky bit is more our judgmental
> attitude than out words.
>
> The mystery of zazen is how does this physical action, giving one
> experience of non-dual action, make the important question of good and
> non-good shift from a knotty problem to the most interesting and fun
> part of living. trying to be good doesn't go very far. But sitting
> and trying to be stilly attentive, that goes remarkably far.
>
> >
> > be well
> > Mel
>
> And you also,
>
> --Chris
Hi Mel and Chris. I happen to have a background in early Christian historical
studies. The general consensus of historical scholars is that there was no one
definitive form of Christianity even in the first and second centuries C.E. One
strand that developed in Syria is represented by a document entitled The Gospel
of Thomas, which may be as old or even older than the New Testament Gospels,
and which has a decidedly non-dualistic slant. It is comprised of 114 sayings
attributed to "The Living Jesus", as told to Judas Thomas (Judas The Twin). It
asserts that whoever comes to understand the inner meaning of these sayings
"will not taste death". Many of them read like Zen Koans. Anyone interested can
find good translations on-line.
Steve
"Jesus said, I am he who exists from the Undivided, I was given some of the
things of my Father. Therefore I say that one who is whole will be filled with
light, but one who is fragmented will be filled with darkness."
>
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