> I simply mean that thinking about things and experiencing things are 
> different.  Even experiencing thinking is different from thinking about 
> thinking.  I may have been hoping to let the lurkers know my observation that 
> sittting zazen does make the shift in attention easier, so I notice the 
> experiencing before it is covered up in thinking easier when I've sat 
> recently). 
MEL: Yes, it does make it harder to describe or talk about the experience in an 
internet forum without actually having had the experience. For example, JMJM 
had posted a link to a cartoonized version of zazen on video. I can relate to 
that very much. Flies aren't the problem where I am. Mosquitoes are, especially 
when they carry malaria...but one still carries on. I got up one time with 
multiple mosquito lumps

While doing zazen, one experiences that nothingness, but the 'small' Self 
eventually take over every once in a while because..well....we lose our 
posture(which I did a few times) due to tiredness, or simply just falling 
asleep. Dualistically-speaking, the 'big' Self is responsible for the natural 
breathing, as it is for other bodily functions we have no control of. Making 
the effort to straighten the spine however, is an act of the smaller variety. 
Falling asleep during zazen can be embarassing(due to snorring) when at the 

The nothingness one experiences is nothing, but something at the same time. 
It's not easy to put into words, but one knows it. In fact, you see it. You 
can't possibly miss it. Is it anything special? Well, it's just...nothing...
Scrutinizing the peach and biting into it are not mutually exclusive choices 
for different points in time.

The 'choice' one makes for any moment in time is whatever appears to oneself to 
be the most appropriate choice for that moment.
MEL: Of course. Yes
Almost anyone here could give others repetitious advice on how to run their 
lives, and their intentions, like those of fundamentalist religionists, 
would no doubt be motivated by good intentions; but, guided by current cultural 
mores, at least in English-speaking countries, most abstain from such 
well-intentioned speech.
MEL: Yes. However, due to past Semitic influences of most Westerners, that 
evangelical attitude somehow manages to find itself into even..well...Zen 
practise. Whenever one joins a spiritual and/or religious forum of sorts, one 
does eventually get this. I got such in pagan/NewAge, Christian, and especially 
in Islamic online forums. I had a purely intellectual interest in the Qur'an 
and I donated Islamic books to the local mosque as I didn't need them anymore. 
My intention was to drop the items there, and then go. That didn't happen. I 
was basically lead to sit down and explain myself why or how was it that I 
still wasn't a Muslim after all such reading

In any case, you're quite right of course
> Much, much short cut to  eat the peach rather than to have the poetry and 
> much more often the speculation by the ones who read a lot about  what look 
> like the taste of the peach but never tried, tasted or even see a peach in 
> their life.
MEL: Ideally, yes. Unfortunately, not all are suited to zazen practise for all 
sorts of reasons. There will always be those from the Semitic 
fold(Christian/Muslim/Jewish) who will have nothing more but an intellectual 
interest in all things to do with the Buddha or Tao. On the other hand, one 
also finds self-confessed/declared atheists in biblical forums who also have 
the same purpose. But...to touch something of the divine instead of researching 
it...that is different indeed even for Zen which has no god to rule over a 
nation or people

I've seen and experienced it from multiple-spiritual angles(but forget 
Pentecostal...no thanks...*big laughter*), but I've made a choice of coming 
back to Zen this time. There are no morals or god(s) involved and one has 
basically a complete, free hand

in peace



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