Hi there Chris! --- On Thu, 13/1/11, ChrisAustinLane <[email protected]> wrote:
From: ChrisAustinLane <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] Not understanding mindfulness To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Received: Thursday, 13 January, 2011, 6:29 AM I do not think that followers of Judaism try very much to recruit new converts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: You're quite right. I do get the impression that they're somewhat more subtle though(except in Jerusalem, apparently). Once they know you're interested, keen, and genuine, the evangelical hornets do come out of the nest In Jerusalem, it was reported some time ago that an Armenian congregation marching down a path had their old but highly revered wooden cross(200 years old?) smashed by a group of very zealous/fanatical Jewish students. In the report, it was said that it was also apparently not unusual for devout Christians(even priests) to be spat on and verbally abused as well by these young boys during pilgrimages to the Holy Land. I would personally say...well...yes, this could be a form of Jewish 'evangelism'...sort of ..... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christianity and Islam are a bit more evangelistic, ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: Yes, they are...especially these days...and those 2 are competing with each other for fresh recruits all the time, and I thought the Mormons and JWs were bad enough With the Muslims, there seem to be this constant trumpet-blowing about how many have left Christendom and joined Islam every month(or year) according to the latest statistics or reports(What reports/statistics??!!). I mean, hey, one's gotta do what one's gotta do to increase the army of the child-molestor(the prophet), yeah? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- but I am left wondering about what you mean by Semitic evangelism. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: I often use the term 'semitic' to save having to type Christian/Islamic/Jewish, and for all other Middle Eastern folk near and/or around the Fertile Crescent and Gulf regions. Academically, that may not be right(especially as I've put the Egyptians and Iranians/Persians in the same basket) I'm rather hesitant with the Jews, but I find the other 2 to be quite keen on spreading their faith...and therefore why I used the term 'semitic evangelism' -------------------------------------------------------------------- I ask for clarification on this forum because of some threads that asserted that westerner folk who pursue zen tend to be more contaminated with Semitic ideals of good and evil than those from Eastern societies. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL:...Ummm....you might want to blame that one on me, but that's what I personally tend to see. There is no good or evil in Zen. There's only activity. Once one starts categorizing which are good or bad, then a problem may ensue(Buddha just acts...just is..). For example, I see nothing wrong with..... - capital punishment - abortion on demand - contraception ...and so on, because that's what comes out of me. We all have our own conscience on one thing or another, whether they were learned(drummed into us), or not. As adults, we all make our choices. Just my personal view ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So is it the dualism or the evangelism that is claimed to be Semitic? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: The dualism might be ED's(I think, if I remember correctly), and the evangelism part is mine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wonder if you Mel agree with Ed that my original line about the peach And the painting was in fact evangelistic? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: I've been looking up the above in the archives and I found the 'peach' posting but not the 'painting' bit. The thing is(and I think I've explained it to ED already, albeit indirectly) that when one is in a spiritual and/or religious forum that one will eventually be asked to make the choice of....are they in, or are they out? That can be clear and direct, or subtle(subtle, but only for a short while). The fence-sitters eventually stick out like a sore thumbs, especially by the way they post on forums, or message boards...and they often get abused but that is to be expected. I did, when I was in an Islamic forum Let's take the Muslims for a moment. I have worked with quite a few of them, and I asked this and that question about the Qur'an. Well, they soon got tired of me, because I wasn't willing to convert. In the end, some of them were starting to get quite annoyed and so I decided not to speak to them of Islam from then on. I work with them. That is enough(and I don't read the hadiths or the Qur'an in front of them) In this instance, ED is seriously interested in analysing Zen and keeping it all academic, or at least that's what I see so far. He can do that, and it's no good stopping him. Let him. However, academic conclusions will draw either derision, or silence. If you find his ideas as disagreeable, then so be it. It's no good asking academics and the like to do zazen before they make attempts to talk any sort of substance. It leads to nothing fruitful, but that's just my view. If they're completely off the mark...ah, well.......because for the rest of us, zazen practise is indeed very good I've agreed with ED on certain points, but I'll let him find out for himself. He's an adult. Let us give him the freedom to make his choices. Lastly, if his statements are too outrageous, I say let it be so....but that's just me This is just the thing about Zen...we all eventually become our own counsellors through the concept of emptiness...or nothingness...BIG MIND...something, or another(*laughter*)....Zensters see it there, but isn't there...and unfortunately, an experience that pure academics may not comprehend ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For the record, while I myself answer 'sit' to people seem receptive to that method of easing living, I do so with an implicit assertion that they are free individuals and will work out their path according to their own lights. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ MEL: Absolutely Chris, I couldn't agree more. That is what separates us from the Semites. Now, I'm being dualistic here but I only say that because some of their flock try so hard to bring me back from being that...well...that 'lost and wandering sheep'...*more laughter*....and back into Yahweh's fold... The sheep's fold....and all Semites are sheep, and some in this world obviously think I need another sheep's bath in the fold after having been 'lost' for so long ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MEL: My pleasure ------------------------------------------------------------------------ PS. Obligatory zen story: A politician visits the wise zen master and asks the secret. The master replies, "do what is good and do not do what is not good." the politician rolls his eyes and says, "my kid can tell me that!" the master says, "we all know this, but even this wise zen master has trouble doing it." ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEL:....(*BIG LAUGHTER*)...I loved it, thank you! in peace Mel
