I'm on the east coast in Aus however that translates in GMT. Sure whatever. And fair enough.
--- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > Rewrisk, > > I don't know what time zone you are in, but I'm usually in GMT +7 which > around a half-day difference from most of the USA - if that's where you are. > > I certainly won't get 'scared off', but neither will I try to 'get my head > around you'. You are who you are, and come to this forum with all the > knowledge and beliefs your experiences have provided you. > > I only care to try to communicate my experiences in this text-bound medium as > best I can. > > As I said earlier - Welcome! > > ...Bill! > > > > > --- In [email protected], "rewrisk" <rewrisk@> wrote: > > > > send fail....... > > Actually if he is as good as you seem to think then he is trying to get his > > head around me. If so then I wish him well of it. > > > > --- In [email protected], "rewrisk" <rewrisk@> wrote: > > > > > > I think I must have scared him off. > > > I can be abrupt. > > > It's been twenty five years since I first entered the Dark Stone > > > Temple. > > > The rampant ignorance ruling this world terrifies me. > > > > > > --- In [email protected], ChrisAustinLane <chris@> wrote: > > > > > > > > This interchange is most amusing. > > > > > > > > I suspect the two senior practitioners are in violent agreement. > > > > > > > > Bill is no philosopher, tho he manifests a love of wisdom. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Chris Austin-Lane > > > > Sent from a cell phone > > > > > > > > On Jan 22, 2012, at 19:30, "rewrisk" <rewrisk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Rubbish! > > > > > The Abyss may be dark but it is hardly empty so do not speak to me of > > > > > what you do not know phillosopher. > > > > > Reality is entirely ordered to the unfettered mind. > > > > > Chaos is a failure to grasp reality. > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> Rewrisk, > > > > >> > > > > >> The abyss is the absence of rationality - chaos. And yes you must > > > > >> jump into it (the unknown and unknowable) to rid yourself of your > > > > >> attachments. > > > > >> > > > > >> But don't to it so as to know. The abyss does not contain knowledge > > > > >> or the access to knowledge or illumination of some kind. The abyss > > > > >> is completely dark and empty. > > > > >> > > > > >> ...Bill! > > > > >> > > > > >> --- In [email protected], "rewrisk" <rewrisk@> wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > >>> No? > > > > >>> You are quite wrong. > > > > >>> They are all true! > > > > >>> > > > > >>> The abyss is real and you must 'jump' into it. > > > > >>> If you would know? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Anthony, > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Zen stories, perhaps even more than most, are symbolic - many are > > > > >>>> allegories and should not be taken literally. I say zen stories > > > > >>>> use this device more than most because much of what zen is about > > > > >>>> cannot be totally expressed with words - espcially written words. > > > > >>>> Face-to-face dialog is better, but as you know some zen masters > > > > >>>> tried to express and communicate their experience of Buddha Nature > > > > >>>> without words - with just sounds or even just actions. At least > > > > >>>> that's my opinion. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> The 'Jumping into the Abyss' phrase/allegory was taken from what > > > > >>>> you've called the physical world. When we stand at the edge of an > > > > >>>> abyss and contemplate jumping we will probably be terrified. It > > > > >>>> would take an act of either extreme desperation or faith to jump. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> That is the same kind of desparation or faith that is needed to > > > > >>>> sever all attachements to the illusion of 'self' and rationality > > > > >>>> and throw yourself into the 'abyss' - Buddha Nature. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> ...Bill! > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Bill, > > > > >>>>> à > > > > >>>>> Quote:à in zen stories as 'leaping into the abyss' > > > > >>>>> à > > > > >>>>> Since the physical world is part of the reality, can you do that > > > > >>>>> physically? > > > > >>>>> à > > > > >>>>> Anthony > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> ________________________________ > > > > >>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > >>>>> To: [email protected] > > > > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 11 January 2012, 10:19 > > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > > > >>>>> did your friends & family react? > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> à > > > > >>>>> Siska, > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Yes, the concept of cause-and-effect is illusory. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> The belief in cause-and-effect is an attempt by your > > > > >>>>> discriminating mind to 'understand' reality, to 'make sense'of > > > > >>>>> experience which is fundamentally chaotic. It is a process of > > > > >>>>> breaking up wholistic experience (Just THIS!) into pieces, and > > > > >>>>> then to categorize and even directly associating some pieces with > > > > >>>>> others by assigning a dependent cause-and-effect relationship to > > > > >>>>> these pairs or sets of pieces. The establishment of these > > > > >>>>> cause-and-effect relationships are done to fit your needs at the > > > > >>>>> time. They are not absolute, objective or real. They are > > > > >>>>> relational, subjective and illusory - this is because they are > > > > >>>>> dependent upon your dualistic concept of self/other. The illusion > > > > >>>>> of cause-and-effect helps you feel more comfortable and gives you > > > > >>>>> a certain sense of control of life. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> The concept of karma is a spritualized version of > > > > >>>>> cause-and-effect which is usually thought of as purely a physical > > > > >>>>> relationship. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> The letting go of this illusion is sometimes referred to in zen > > > > >>>>> stories as 'leaping into the abyss', or 'taking a step off the > > > > >>>>> 100-ft flagpole'. These are teachings telling you that you must > > > > >>>>> let go of your attachments (espcially to logic and the belief in > > > > >>>>> cause-and-effect), come out of your fantasy comfort zone, throw > > > > >>>>> away your illusory security blanket and throw yourself completly > > > > >>>>> into the stark unknown and unknowable. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> There's no comforting assurance of cause-and-effect there. Just > > > > >>>>> THIS! > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> ...Bill! > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Hi Bill, > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> The killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. > > > > >>>>>> Would you then say that cause and effect is illusory? > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Siska > > > > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > > > >>>>>> From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > > > >>>>>> Sender: [email protected] > > > > >>>>>> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:18:32 > > > > >>>>>> To: <[email protected]> > > > > >>>>>> Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > > > >>>>>> did your friends & family react? > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Anthony, > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> When I said 'outside agency' I meant 'outside of you' or 'other > > > > >>>>>> than you'. When you say 'karma functions by itself' you are > > > > >>>>>> implying that karma exists independently of you; like when you > > > > >>>>>> say 'not my will but Yours (God's) be done' you are implying > > > > >>>>>> that God exists independently of you. You are implying that > > > > >>>>>> 'karma' and 'God' are 'outside agencies' - outside of and/or > > > > >>>>>> separate from you. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> I am saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and all > > > > >>>>>> their supposed attributes and associated powers/activites are > > > > >>>>>> NOT separate from you. That are created by you - by your > > > > >>>>>> discriminating mind. They are illusory. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> If you kill, there is killing. If you are killed, you die. If > > > > >>>>>> you loot, there is looting. If you are looted, you loose > > > > >>>>>> property. The killing is not the cause and the dieing the > > > > >>>>>> effect. It is the same action viewed or described from two > > > > >>>>>> perspectives. It is Just THIS! > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> This is my experience...Bill! > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> Bill, > > > > >>>>>>> Ãâà > > > > >>>>>>> The difference is that karma does not rely on God or any other > > > > >>>>>>> 'outside agent'. It functions by itself. On the other hand, if > > > > >>>>>>> you deny karma, does that mean whatever you do, whether > > > > >>>>>>> killing, looting or burning, does not have any effects? You may > > > > >>>>>>> say you rely on law to take care of it. But that is part of > > > > >>>>>>> karma, at the human level. Nevertheless, it is more realistic > > > > >>>>>>> than reliance on God. if all are illusory, killing and looting > > > > >>>>>>> will be out of control. In that case, believing in God is > > > > >>>>>>> better than believing in nothing. > > > > >>>>>>> Ãâà > > > > >>>>>>> Anthony > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> ________________________________ > > > > >>>>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > >>>>>>> To: [email protected] > > > > >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00 > > > > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > > > >>>>>>> did your friends & family react? > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> Ãâà > > > > >>>>>>> Anthony, > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> How are they different concepts? > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> Both have to do with action/reaction (cause and effect), and > > > > >>>>>>> both exist as a concept in your mind. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> Labeling some actions/reactions or cause/effect as good or bad > > > > >>>>>>> (good deeds lead to reward or sin leads to punishment; or > > > > >>>>>>> accumulation of [bad] karma leads to being re-born as a toad) > > > > >>>>>>> is just packaging. Likewise attributng the enforcement of > > > > >>>>>>> actions/reactions or cause/effect to an outside agency such as > > > > >>>>>>> karma or God is also just packaging. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> It all looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic packaging. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> ...Bill! > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> Bill, > > > > >>>>>>>> ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > >>>>>>>> It is a different message you wrap in the same envelope. > > > > >>>>>>>> ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > >>>>>>>> Anthony > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> ________________________________ > > > > >>>>>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > > > > >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15 > > > > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > > > >>>>>>>> did your friends & family react? > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > >>>>>>>> Anthony, > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> You definition of karma is well stated, but why do you not > > > > >>>>>>>> think that definition could not also be applied to the > > > > >>>>>>>> Christian concept of sin/obedience and Hell/Heaven? > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> For me it's the same message in a different envelope. > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> ...Bill! > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> That is not karma, but reward and punishment by God. Karma is > > > > >>>>>>>>> action and reaction by yourself through your own mind (or > > > > >>>>>>>>> Buddha nature). > > > > >>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > >>>>>>>>> Anthony > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > > > > >>>>>>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > > > > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, 8 January 2012, 18:03 > > > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, > > > > >>>>>>>>> How did your friends & family react? > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > >>>>>>>>> Christians beleive in 'karma' also: if you're 'good' you go > > > > >>>>>>>>> to Heaven and if you're 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill! > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> ItÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > >>>>>>>>>> is not at all surprising that you got a funny reaction from > > > > >>>>>>>>>> people surrounding you when you said you were interested in > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Buddhism. Try doing the same thing with Moslems, and you get > > > > >>>>>>>>>> a funnier response. Even in this forum, which is less > > > > >>>>>>>>>> hostile to Buddhism, you find different views on it. > > > > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also agrees > > > > >>>>>>>>>> to karma. The difference between the two is the former > > > > >>>>>>>>>> insists that karma is your own business, nobody else can > > > > >>>>>>>>>> help you change it. However, in Hinduism, there are powerful > > > > >>>>>>>>>> deities who respond to your requests and assist you. Don't > > > > >>>>>>>>>> forget we are a zen forum, and there are a view I term > > > > >>>>>>>>>> chaotic zen, which denies anything on karma, or any laws or > > > > >>>>>>>>>> rules. They say everything is in chaos. On the other hand, > > > > >>>>>>>>>> you will also hear all kinds of Buddhist views here. I hope > > > > >>>>>>>>>> you have fun here. > > > > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Anthony > > > > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > > > > >>>>>>>>>> From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08 > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > > > >>>>>>>>>> did your friends & family react? > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to buddhism, > > > > >>>>>>>>>> just recently starting reading up on it the past several > > > > >>>>>>>>>> months, although technically I've been exposed to it for > > > > >>>>>>>>>> many years through a variety of tv shows, movies, etc. My > > > > >>>>>>>>>> favorite was Kung Fu: The Legend Continues. Don't know why, > > > > >>>>>>>>>> but the scenes with the shoalin temple and buddhist monks > > > > >>>>>>>>>> were always my favorite. > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Although I haven't come right out and said to my family > > > > >>>>>>>>>> (except for my sister) that I'm learning about Buddhism, > > > > >>>>>>>>>> they've seen the books and notes I leave to myself > > > > >>>>>>>>>> pertaining to it. So far, it has not been encouraging. They > > > > >>>>>>>>>> kind of give a disgusted look or a groan when they see it > > > > >>>>>>>>>> that suggests that they are not happy about it. They are > > > > >>>>>>>>>> catholics. I'm an atheist (which they've known for years). > > > > >>>>>>>>>> When I finally told my sister that I'd like to visit a > > > > >>>>>>>>>> temple in town, she got disqusted and said "why? You'll > > > > >>>>>>>>>> never go with me to my church, but you'll go to a buddhist > > > > >>>>>>>>>> church?" I didn't know what to say, so I told her the truth, > > > > >>>>>>>>>> that I didn't feel anything for catholicism anymore, and > > > > >>>>>>>>>> that it didn't feel like the right religion for me. She > > > > >>>>>>>>>> wasn't pleased. > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker and boss at > > > > >>>>>>>>>> work. I get along great with both of them, known them for > > > > >>>>>>>>>> several years. My co-worker mentioned she and her husband > > > > >>>>>>>>>> were atheists, so I told her I was too. We both got a kick > > > > >>>>>>>>>> out of it realizing that we never knew that about each > > > > >>>>>>>>>> other. Then I mentioned to her that I had been reading up on > > > > >>>>>>>>>> buddhism lately, and she gave the same kind of groan I've > > > > >>>>>>>>>> been hearing from my family. My boss just sort of gave a > > > > >>>>>>>>>> look of shock and disbelief, didn't say anything. I couple > > > > >>>>>>>>>> of weeks or so before that, I was discussing various books > > > > >>>>>>>>>> with another boss that we like to read, and I mentioned one > > > > >>>>>>>>>> I'd been reading called the Peaceful Warrior. He asked what > > > > >>>>>>>>>> it was about so I told him, and when I mentioned it has a > > > > >>>>>>>>>> buddhist theme to it, he gave a funny look. > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> What's funny about all of this is that I've always figured > > > > >>>>>>>>>> buddhism to be one of the most revered and highly respected > > > > >>>>>>>>>> forms of philosophy and religion on earth. Even growing up I > > > > >>>>>>>>>> felt that way. When I go online to Yahoo Answers R&S forum > > > > >>>>>>>>>> to ask a question pertaining to it, I haven't had any bad > > > > >>>>>>>>>> replies over a single question, and if any of you have ever > > > > >>>>>>>>>> been on there, you know they can be harsh sometimes in that > > > > >>>>>>>>>> section. So it really threw me for a loop seeing all these > > > > >>>>>>>>>> crazy reactions from people I know. > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Did any of you get these same reactions from the people you > > > > >>>>>>>>>> knew when you were first learning about buddhism? > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or > > > > > are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
